No, no, no. Read Don Verity’s response, which is factually
correct. What Jamie is saying is no heat riser valves on the J, due to the
exhaust headers. The J (and ram K) have exhaust heat tubes that run
to/from each header to the carb base for exhaust heat to the carbs. F and
G ram engines had log exhaust manifolds with heat riser valves in each manifold
(on the standard 375hp long ram engines).
Carl Bilter
300J
From: John Grady
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 3:35 PM
Cc: 'Michael Moore' ; 'list server'
Subject: [Chrysler300] RE: Fueling the discussion
I just
communicated with Jamie Hyde, he tells me no exhaust heat control at all on J,
(he is in the middle of doing one) so must be same on F. I stand corrected on
that. Sorry for confusion on my part, never thought much about heat riser detail
in context of rams before today. , I have that heat riser rattle in my
head for all cars, I guess. He mentioned max wedge guys are reproducing the, (or
a) , dual choke cable, in process.... I cannot
understand how Chrysler expected that “no control ram heat” design
to work right. Heat under the ram carb would go up when engine hot, or hot day,
even more with WOT, or cruising at 80 mph, exactly wrong. And be slow to
heat up off idle too. Really strange design to have no control at all of under
carb heat? And for sure it ate away aluminum on exhaust side, but not sure if
thermal or corrosion. Maybe why 400Hp
F apparently had water heated passages? Related to
Rich’s point, on the varying strategies to operate in line quads, ? were
different CFM size WCFB in use over the 55-58 period? If smaller ones early on,
maybe that was why parallel opening? Two (actually 4!) large primary
throats would not work well at low RPM. I also thank
Rob Kern for that excellent narrative in current Brute Force on what he went
through on his C ; I am doing a C, right now, certain pitfalls now have
excellent warning posts!! I also thank Rich for sending it to me. It is great
stuff. From: Rich Barber [mailto:c300@xxxxxxx] Our ’55 C-300
came from the factory with two thermally-actuated chokes. They were
actuated by a stream of air heated in a tube in the RH exhaust manifold and bled
into the carbs through the choke body. The tubes were wrapped with (gasp)
asbestos to help keep the air hot. The hot air would then heat the coil
springs in the choke bodies and open the chokes. I’m not sure, but I
believe the hot air flow continues into the carb continuously. For whatever
reason, the original owner in southern Colorado had the automatic chokes removed
and replaced with two manual chokes with knobs under the dash. The
installation looks very professional, apparently with Carter parts. I must
admit that I appreciate the absolute control over the choke process. I
have an electric fuel pump feeding the mechanical fuel pump and allow it to
operate until a change in pitch indicates the carb bowls are full. Then,
just a little choke, a pump or two and a nice quick start. (Yeah, I know,
there is a risk of pumping gasoline into the crankcase if the mechanical pump
diaphragm fails. There is a heat-riser valve on the RHS exhaust manifold
that forces RHS exhaust to the LHS exhaust pipe via the intake manifold.
This quickly provides carb heat and enables the chokes to be manually pushed
open. This works fine in mild to hot CA and should also work in IA this
time of year. Additionally,
both carbs on our ’55 are hard linked together and feed the engine
simultaneously. Secondaries are flow/velocity controlled. I believe
the ’56 300B cars were also hard linked and that later hemi’s were connected by
progressive linkage that did not open up the front carb until ¾ throttle or
more. Perhaps that was for economy reasons. I get better mileage
towing our ’55 on a trailer behind our Hemi-rango than when driving it.
For those few
conservative and cautious drivers that bought cars having one or two four-barrel
carbs, the unused bowls and carbs could gum up with the residue from evaporated
leaded gasoline. Along with other gearhead teens, I was always willing to
take grandpa’s Chrysler out and blow the cobwebs out of it with WOT runs.
One of my buddies’ granny had a Cad Eldorado with dual quads and we were ALWAYS
willing to exercise that beast. I recall the dealer once replaced the
carbs after her complaints of rough idling and operation in Des Moines—on her
dime. Backfiring and black smoke might emit as the junk gas was displaced
with good stuff and the internal passages of the front carb were partially
opened. Often, carb cleaner had to be poured into the intake while racing
the engine to dissolve the gunk—the blue black exhaust showed the results of the
cleansing. Gasoline in the ‘50’s also had its problems with
deposits. Big oil then started adding detergents such as Shell’s TCP
(tri-cresyl phosphate, not tomcatpee) that helped clean the carbs and maybe even
the intake valves and combustion chambers. C300K’ly, Rich
Barber Brentwood,
CA (Got maybe ¼” of rain last night—so much for the bloody monsoon
season) From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John
Nowosacki I believe the 'one choke for two carbs' on inline setups also
applies to the 55-58 Hemi engines as well. On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 11:18 AM, <kmaniak@xxxxxxx>
wrote: John: With all due respect, I feel
compelled to offer a few clarifications regarding the manifold and carburetor
set ups on the letter series Chryslers. The in-line twin carburetor set up
used on the E and H was designed in such a manner that the front two barrels of
the rear carburetor was the primary fuel supply to the entire engine at start up
and low speed operation. Therefore, there was need for only one choke,
located on the primary barrels of the rear carburetor as Mike describes.
The rear carburetor secondary barrels, and well as the front carburetor barrels,
only opened after the primary barrels were at least one-third to one-half
open. Both carburetors fed all eight cylinders
simultaneously. The cross ram engines differed
from the in-line engines in that each carburetor only fed four cylinders.
At start up and low speed operation, the primary barrels of both carburetors
were required to operate, with each carburetor feeding only four
cylinders. As such, two chokes were required, one for each
carburetor. Given that the '60 & '61 cross rams had automatic choke
pull offs, and each worked independently of the other, I can see how a lack of
synchronization could really mess up cold start engine performance and
drivability. And I agree that the manual choke set up used on the J and
ram K provided synchronization. The manual choke was also cheaper to
produce, and I think Chrysler was pushing "cheaper" when building the J and ram
K. Now I need to touch for a moment
the subject of the "exhaust heat riser valve". To be clear, this special
valve was a thermostatically operated butterfly valve installed just before the
exhaust flange on the passenger side "log style" exhaust manifold. The
purpose of this valve was to temporarily restrict exhaust flow from the right
side of the engine and force a portion of the exhaust gases from the right side
of the engine through the right cylinder head, then through the base of the one
piece intake manifold, then out through the left head. This allowed the
exhaust to quickly heat the intake manifold for quicker warm up and better cold
start drivability. On engines with intake manifolds and carburetors
installed between the cylinder heads, only one "exhaust heat riser valve" was
installed on the right exhaust manifold. The cross ram engines did not
have carburetors mounted between the heads. The cross ram manifolds included
blocker plates that capped off the upper center exhaust ports in each cylinder
head. As a result, exhaust gases did not flow from head to head on a cross
ram engine. Therefore, no "exhaust heat riser valve" was required or installed
on the ram engines. Each ram manifold receives exhaust flow from the
respective exhaust manifold below it on a continuous
basis. Hopefully we are all on "one page"
now. I welcome any comments or differing opinions. Chris the K
MANIAC
-----Original
Message-----
Only one carb
was connected to your setup? So you started on 4 cylinders..? The J setup manual
choke split in two if I remember right , made both carbs do exactly the same
thing.. What you want ... They should
have had one choke control and cross link the carb fast idle and choke
mechanically. Not sure why they did not do that. Would have cost less and worked
right.. What they do matters less ----than they do it together.
Exhaust heat
riser valves both have to be in sync too. Or you get loping idle , stalls when
you push D on cold days, equals starting it 5-6 times . If you had manual choke
on both, (J) , it just let you raise idle high enough manually when cold
to cover up all this. But still harsh D engagement was the norm. Tests that fine
front U joint on 60 -61, too!!. “Clang” !!---J had a little looser converter,
not as harsh maybe. And they are a
bear to start if they get badly flooded , not sure why..My .02: = maybe gas sits
in a deep puddle at bottom of ram under carb till it is good and ready to
evaporate out, (no other way out) but a squirt of ether and away you go. On
regular manifold, that gas would run down into ports. Despite working
on these on and off for what 50 years now, I admit to lots of suffering
along the way. Can do in minutes what used to baffle me for a day. One key thing
I found is that many, if not most of the carbs have destroyed adjusting needles
by now , due to all the playing with them..if you see a ring or step worn
circumferentially around the needle, no question -- it is junk. Cannot be
adjusted right. That ring comes from “golden screwdriver “ and going too tight
into hole, prior to “backing out 1.5 turns” . I found new Edelbrock needles
(spare parts from them) are beefier and fit and work even with possible damage
in carb body..taper is slightly different. .# 1 thing you can do about
frustrating drifty funky idle setup. ..that changes by itself every time you
look at it. I mistakenly junked several “untuneable “ ‘defective” carbs
before knowing that, After careful rebuilds, still the idle problem remained
..... From: Michael Moore [mailto:mmoore8425@xxxxxxx?]
John, I have owned my
300H since 1965 or so. When I got my car, it had a very nnicely installed manual
choke. It was a very clean installation, which I thought was factory for a
while, using one of the unused round knobs beneath the dome of the
instrument panel. The unused knob had a set screw and was used to connect to a
choke wire which went to the rear carb. It was actually, I thought, much more
useful than my curent electric stove choke. I only removed it
because it would gradually creep into the choke position as the engine vibrated,
so I frequently had to push the choke back in. Sometimes, on a long trip, I
woujld only notice it when I realized the engine wasn't running right and would
find the choke fully engaged. Otherwise, I
thought the car started easier as I could momentarily choke the crap
out of it if it was cold and as soon as it fired start coming off of
choke. Mike
Moore 300H
On Jan 29, 2014,
at 4:21 AM, John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Another aspect of this was very poor choke
pull off on ram cars ; one side pulls off before other even today . Certain
types of cutomers would not deal with this in 60 , 61. I was there , one person
i know had rams pulled off 383 61 plymouth wagon over terrible idle /cold start
/warmup stalling isuues in Boston ... New car . J and K (?) had manual chokes to ensure
syncrony . Ram cars are cut a lot of slack today , but remembet at meet in maine
it took 5 club membets half an hour to start a perfect flooded F
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