Re: [Chrysler300] New American Classic Tires

3. But here is an understandable explanation of whats going on.

http://www.350z-tech.com/forums/152-wheels-tires/70879-skinny-hub-centric-rings.html

4. I am guessing that modern die cast aluminum wheels can not be made like lug centric because the nature of the conical seat of the lug nut/bolt would crack the brittle aluminum. Steel is much tougher. It also may be related to use of impact wrenches. So perhaps then manufacturing tolerances of a standard clearance hoe etc. might allow the wheel to get mounted eccentrically. The attachment above makes the point that once the wheel is installed, the job of the hub centric ring is done-noload is transferred through it. It is just a centering tool.

That’s wheat I think is going on.

Mike Moore

300H

On Jan 5, 2014, at 6:07 PM, Edward Mills Antique Tractors <millserAT@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I pulled up American Classic site and did not find anything about Adapters - where did you find that info?

Nor did I find info on wheels on their site? Where did the initial info come from? Maybe a call to a salesperson? Maybe not even related directly to American Classic Tires. Maybe the first poster got it wrong.

On 1/5/2014 7:23 PM, Michael Moore wrote:
Lugcentric I can understand-and that's really all I care about as I don't plan on using non-stock rims. It is strange that American Classic would bring that up to someone using stock steel rims.
Mike Moore
300H
On Jan 5, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Edward Mills Antique Tractors <millserAT@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I just reread the original post - they are recommending Lugcentric - not Hubcentric.

That seems to make even less sense - I agree with the use of shouldered lug nuts or tapered lug nuts which effectively dominates as a load path in either case.

Assuming that is the definition of Lugcentric, virtually everything would be Lugcentric unless center ID is precisely machined to match raised area on center of hub - and my experience is that was not the default - and even then the load path is the same.

On 1/5/2014 5:57 PM, Edward Mills Antique Tractors wrote:
I'm talking 1984-85 timeframe when we were playing with them.

I'm thinking some of the newer OE wheels may be effectively hub centric but also lug centric as they mostly use tapered seat lugnuts - as long as everything is concentric I see no issues. I know there have been times when I had problems registering an aluminum wheel on center due to tight fit (especially if you get any trash inbetween but that an issue of not paying enough attention) but I don't ever recall such an issue with OE steel wheels.

Other option that was common on early aluminum and mag wheels with thick centers and cylindrical holes was shouldered lug nuts with large washers for purpose of distributing load into softer aluminum and preventing misalignment of early mag wheels to lugs. We swapped over to tapered steel inserts and standard 1/2-20 tapered lug nuts in the BBS wheels as early as 1978 - much easier to change a tire if you had to in a pit stop. But OE mags used shouldered lug nuts at least to late 1980's - well into radial tires which were dominant by mid 1970s.

In either case the lug nuts and the preload in them are what take the load - remember the slotted lug holes for universal fit of some of the cheaper mags to fit both 4.5 Ford/Chrysler and 4.75 GM bolt patterns. The best the hubcentric feature would do is set up centering before you torque. Can't see how it would significantly affect load path or why radials would be more sensitive - may be just a pre-excuse in case there are tire problems.

I know a tire guy who put Ford Aluminum wheels on a Jeep Cherokee - he had to bore our the centers of the Ford wheels to make them fit over hubs. Otherwise no issues but personally I would not have done it.

On 1/5/2014 4:37 PM, Michael Moore wrote:
Ed,
Has any production car ever used hub centric wheels?

I just read this and this (below) and the author apparently does not understand fasteners, how they work, how a preloeaded bolt works, and in general is spouting a bunch of malarky which any engineer can spot in a short read of this piece.

I really think this is something new to sell and has no relationship to our cars. I would need to see some numbers on a free body diagram to believe any of this.

http://tires.about.com/od/understanding_wheels/a/hub-centric-vs-lug-centric-wheels.htm
Mike Moore

Thanks, Mike Moore
300H

On Jan 5, 2014, at 11:18 AM, Edward Mills Antique Tractors <millserat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Not sure I understand the benefit of Hubcentric - in reality, most wheels center on lugs which are further from center and hence better able to resist any movement as long as they are concentric.

To be Hubcentric, you must have 2 things - first hub must have a raised surface to register rim and second, rim ID must be precisely correct diameter for that specific hub. Many drum brake applications do not have a surface raised to register on. Further, many wheels have slightly oversized and/or loose tolerance to accommodate multiple applications - i.e. the ability to swap aftermarket wheels for both Ford & Chrysler application.

We had option to use Hubcentric Momo wheels years back while racing - you had an oversized center on wheel and used a set of application specific adapters which precisely matched ID of wheel and OD of the specific car. Never found any real benefit so we did not use after first few uses. Principal benefit seemed to be precision in centering with respect to any potential out-of-round of the mounted assembly. No real benefit as to side loads which were the predominant issue on race car as we never had any concentricity issue with Momo or BBS wheels with race tires.

I would suspect this recommendation is due to some of the balance issues which have been reported with some replica sizes and low production specialty tires.

I would further note that belted tires (both radial and bias-belted) are particularly sensitive to belt alignment and manufacturing tolerances. In 1968/69 when bias belted tires became popular, only Goodyear had them and in their haste to catch up, several of the other big5 (Goodyear, Firestone, Goodrich, General, and Uniroyal) had issues with their first generation tires. When customers complained about balance, we were instructed to check with a radial runout gage and if more than a number which I now forget, they were replaced no charge. By about 1970, the production tolerance issues were sorted out.

On 1/4/2014 8:07 PM, Ryan Hill wrote:

Hub centric uses the actual hub to center the wheel; the hole in the center of the wheel fits snugly over the hub. Lug centric wheels rely on the lugs only.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 4, 2014, at 2:52 PM, "Ron Waters" <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>American Classic Tires recommends "lug centric" wheels rather than the original "hub centric" wheels that may flex with radials.

Can you explain the difference ?

Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Rinaldi
To: Chrysler 300 Club
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 4:02 PM
Subject: [Chrysler300] New American Classic Tires

Hi To All & Happy New Year,

Just opened the latest Hemmings MN & Coker is advertising a new series of American Classic radial WWW tires that have bias ply look profiles. The American Classic Tire website does not show them as of yet.

They seem to be geared for Cadillacs, thunderbirds & Corvettes.

Based on carnut.com "as built" specs for '55-'65 300s, C-300, 300-B & 300-G owners may benefit from the 800:R15 tires if a 3 1/4" WWW works for you.

As with American Classic 235/75R14 & 235/75R15 radial tires, the white wall is an integral part of the tire. The 14" 75 series tires are for 1955-1960 unless owners opt for 15" wheels and tires.

Diamond Classic has S rated new Michelin 235/75R15 tires that they will put what ever size WW you want. They also promise the 235/75R14" tires soon by their own production.

BTW, I have the 15" Michelin tires from Diamond Back mounted on Stockton 15" wheels with the original 300-F hubcaps. They are great and exceed all expectations. One tire did develop "bead bubbling" of the white wall where it sealed to the rim. I had to pay shipping one way for a replacement WW. They did give me some grief since it they were over 1 year old.

American Classic Tires recommends "lug centric" wheels rather than the original "hub centric" wheels that may flex with radials.

Stockton Wheel will make up 14" modern "lug centric" replacement wheels or 15" that will accept 14" hub caps for radial tires. They are for 1957-60 and 1962-65. Their 15" wheels do not match 1961 300-G perforated wheels. They will not fit 1955-56.

Some narrow white walls are currently still available for 300-H and up.

All of this comes at a price! Hope Santa was good to you.

300,ly,
Tony Rinaldi
300-F Conv't

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone