Re: 727 Leaking Fluid like it was made in Great Britain
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Re: 727 Leaking Fluid like it was made in Great Britain
- From: rll <rlipinski3@xxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:50:16 -0700
John
What is strange about your problem is that during normal operation the
fluid level in the trans should be pretty close to the level when you
check the fluid in neutral.
To get a level high enough to come out the vent would require the volume
of oil from the converter to be going into the case.
A check valve, ball, or seal must keep the fluid in the converter normally.
There is a leak down problem when setting for a time, this problem 2
of my cars presently have. If you drive them once a week , no
problem...leave them set for two weeks the converter drains into the main
case and then out the vent. Sealing the old vent and adding a new vent
on the top of the case or tail housing with the line running higher than
the top of torque converter should stop the leak.
The tail housing has the same pressure as the case....we proved this
while trying to find a leak, we shot the front yoke of an old drive
shaft across the street into our
neighbor's carport..thank goodness for no traffic and my neighbor's
being out showing off his brand new truck....
On that particular leak, fluid was coming out of the bell housing. We
had put a new bearing and seal in the front pump, that followed by a new
converter, bearing and seal,
final fix was a new pump from Torqueflite Pattys on ebay. That leak ,
was a drip, drip, drip, type of leak. My son was 110 miles up the hill
towards Flagstaff when he
noticed the smoke off the pipes in his rear view mirror. We were going
to trailer it home, that fell through, finally drove it back in stopping
about every 30 miles to check
the level and add fluid.
6 times in and out for that to be solved....i can still taste the
fluid....but we could do it in less than an hour.....
rob/ferts/phx
On 9/10/11 11:33 PM, John Hammond wrote:
Thanks for all the replies so far ! Lots of good info and things to
check on - please add any imput you think might be of help here. I've
been reading a great deal on line, have ordered the Carl Munroe 727
Book, and plan to reread the FSM transmission section over again
tommrow. With my research so far, it's beginning to look like this
may be somewhat more common than I initially thought: and one "fix"
that has become apparant has been to tap and plug the vent in the
front pump, and add a new vent to the rear of the case forward of the
tailshaft. A couple of companies even offer kits for this, that
utilize a vented expansion tank and/or some provision for a return
line back to the sump area of the transmission. These do seem do
usually be used in transbrake and/or manual valve bodied applications
too. Still, this seems to be missing the mark for my problem, due to
the low loads, and few miles driven on a mild street build. Something
has simply caused a leak that needs to be sought out and fixed rather
than redirecting it and allowing it to remain, (I'm guessing here),
unchecked and inappropriate for its intended use. I am so bummed out
by this I can't hardly will myself to look under the the thing, or
raise the hood, or even wash the last oil down off of it. I guess I
need a break from bug chasin', but with the season winding to a close,
days getting shorter, temps dropping, I really hoped to get in a few
all out full-throttle, spirit-lifters before the local scene
dwindled-out till next spring. Funds are super-tight right now, and
hopefully I can get this solved without a complete rebuild or
replacement pretty quick, and fairly inexpensively....the saga
continues. Again thanks to any and all who have offered advice or
assistance. '64 Rusted-Out 330 wagon: Free for Towing Home...'64 330
PartsCar: $200. ... Restification of Rusted-Out 330 Wagon: Six Years
and Thousands of Dollars...Additional 727 Repairs to date: $675. .....
Thrill of Driving a Mopar Every Day.....PRICELESS !! John
Hammond
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike & Deb" <lefevre@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: 727 Leaking Fluid like it was made in Great Britain
John,
I'm not sure it would make any difference but is the windage baffle in
place over the vent hole? The newer TF's eliminated it but placed a
plastic baffle on the inside of the vent.
Mike LeFevre
On 9/8/2011 1:57 AM, John Hammond wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: 426_maxwedge@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: "The 1962 to 1965 Mopar Mail List Clubhouse"
<1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:37 PM
Subject: Torqueflite Flood
This one seems to have everyone stumped and the ordeal so far will
make for a long explanation: so please bear with me, and ANY imput or
past experiences relayed will be most appreciated. My '64 330 wagon
has a mild 440 backed by a Full Manual Valve-Bodied 727. Both engine
and transmission are fresh rebuilds from respected shops and have
less than 200 miles on them. Since the 440 is so new, I've been
really conservative in driving style and nothing has seen the high
side of 3800rpm yet. Coming home from a cruise-in a scant 7 miles
from my home a few weeks back everything is as fine as it has been
since it's first miles driven. Later that evening the wife and I
decide to go for a bite to eat and drive the wagon to the restarant.
Coming off of a long hill in third at about 50mph something lets go
and pumps most all of the trans-fluid out of the 727 and oils down
the exhaust so bad I thought it was an electrical fire under the
dash: car was so full of smoke it was hard to see out. I get it on
the side of the road and by the time I had the fire extinguisher in
hand, the tons of smoke had dissipated and a wave of trans fluid ran
out from underneath the car. Quickly looking underneath the STREAM of
fluid was coming from the inspection cover slightly to the passenger
side from center. Car went home on a rollback since I hoped it was
something like a pump and likely the internals might be OK. The flood
was nice and red and had no burnt scent from it. I should mention
that the wagon has a huge plate style cooler, (probabaly a quart
cap.), and a 1-qt. extra capacity pan along with a new (10-1/2" ?),
mild upgraded convertor.
The transmission shop pulled the 727 out, removed the convertor
and pump - which appeared fine with no signs of damage or failure,
replaced the usual, expected seals, reinstalled everything and
started the car which instantly began pouring out fluid again.
Looking behind the convertor with an inspection mirror while still
installed - it appeared as if the convertor drive snout wasn't
engaging the seal in the pump and thereby allowing a massive leak.
Out comes the 727 and the convertor was replaced with a new
stock-type convertor along with all of the previous mentioned seals
again just in case something was pinched or misaligned on the first
attempt. Upon restarting; no leaking is apparant. Testing it in every
gear by stalling it against the brakes after the fluid was up to
operating temp no leaks. Car is deemed fixed and I drove it five
miles home. I drove it home slowly in the rain because of bad wipers
but nothing seemed less than ok. Following day I decided to take a
short spin for a better assessment, started it, let it run for 4 or 5
minutes, no leaks, no smells or smoke, and I started down the road.
In less than 1 mile it has started pumping out the fluid again.
Turned around, parked it, check the dipstick which still shows some
fluid at the very end of the stick and I started making calls.
The drive hub or snout of the convertor shows to have perfect
wear pattern at 200 miles without any galling or scratches. If the
bushing in the front pump was bad, the evidence would show up here in
that reguard due to slop allowing less than concentric alignment. So
we can probably rule out, convertor, pump, and seals at this point.
The dipstick is from Lokar, I called their tech department and
verified that the scale is consistantly calibrated prior to
manufacture to an original 727 tube and stick as factory installed.
They stated it was so, and assured me that if seated against the case
the indicated area will yield a correct level reading. The FSM calls
for 7-9 quarts on a stock panned 727. Adding a qt. for the deep pan,
a qt. for the huge cooler, that would bring the total up to around 11
qts. Almost exactly the amount used to produce the correct level
shown on the verified Lokar dipstick. Hensley Racing when posed with
this problem suggests that the transmission is simply overfilled and
the excess is being spit out of the vent on the forward top portion
of the front pump. I agree that the vent is likely the source of the
leak at this time especially considering the location of the stream
of the leak compaired to the location of the vent hole. What doesn't
make sense is why the car made 200 miles prior to the problem with
that amount of fluid and now that the leak has started; nothing seems
to stop it at the same given quantity of fluid installed and level
checked. One other question I've yet to get an answer to is "Venting
from where?" Is this hole in the pump justl ike a hole for a breather
in a valve cover, or is it plumbed/part of, to a specific passage or
circuit?
I contacted Turbo-Action tech dept. and told them what I'd been
going through and asked if this could be a valve-body related issue.
They said it was possible, but unlikely. I've used the full-manual
reverse-pattern Cheetah body in a number of cars, without any
problems, ever, for decades. The tech stated that the regulator valve
may have stuck allowing pressure to go unchecked in the high gear
servo which would force the fluid out the path of least resistance (
i.e. the vent or the dipstick tube). The Lokar stick is seated
pretty firmly in the tube I might add. The repair entails removal of
the valve body, removal of the regulator from the body, polish with
emory cloth until smooth activation and release is obtained and
reinstall. He again states that this condition is very rare to occur,
however. I surmise that since it has obviously happened at some
time, and since right now, it is the most logical explanation of the
condition I'm experiencing it's the best guess so far.....but wow it
seems really far-fetched. I'm attempting to contact Pat Blais to see
if he has any ideas on this as well, but I've yet to speak with him.
Maybe someone here has some info as to what is happening and how to
address it; or somebody else I should talk to? In all my years of
Mopardom I've never seen or heard of anything like this and neither
had Hensley Racing. I am by no means a transmission guy but one
doesn't need to be with a 727. You simply install it, fill it, and
beat on it unmercifully till the end of time without worry unless you
install a transbrake and/or slicks.... at which point you check on
it, occassionally. Again, if anybody can shed some light on this, I
would be most thankful for your aid... just the transfluid and the
bags of oil-dry are approaching my fuel costs......thanks, John Hammond
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