I can buy it at my local parts stores and motorcycle shops. It's very common now, didn't used to be. Here's a good article: http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest/BINDER_JUICE.html Tech Question Gary Boak, Chilliwack, BC, Canada, 1969 Dart Swinger 340 I notice in the April 04 issue you say that DOT 5 brake fluid can be used without flushing the system. Everything I have heard and read states that Dot 5 does not mix with anything except DOT 5. When switching to DOT 5 are you not supposed to use new rubber? Gary- Another old wive's (or Mopar Muscle) tale. First, realize that DOT specs don't specify the composition of the fluid, the rating relates only to the boiling point. So, therefore, it would be possible to have DOT 3 fluid that's silicone, and DOT 5 that's not (and this latter combination does exist.) These specs are covered in detail in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard section number 571.116, which is part of the Code of Federal Regulations, #49, Chapter V, see for yourself at: Code of Federal Regulations, #49, Chapter V Here's an excerpt from the law on boiling points: Equilibrium reflux boiling point (ERBP). When brake fluid is tested according to S6.1, the ERBP shall not be less than the following value for the grade indicated: (a) DOT 3: 205 ÌŠC. (401 ÌŠF.). (b) DOT 4: 230 ÌŠC. (446 ÌŠF.). (c) DOT 5: 260 ÌŠC. (500 ÌŠF.). A recent change to the law specifies that non-silicone DOT fluid be labeled DOT 5.1. All DOT 5 fluid must be purple in color, all other grades must be clear to amber. The baziilion pages of the specs relate mostly to boiling points, viscosity, and the fluid's effects on rubber (swelling), as well as testing procedures. But there's also much written about compatibility. What has probably caused the confusion is that DOT 5 fluids are tested differently than other types, but these tests apply equally to silicone and non-silicone fluids. Subchapter S6.5.4 addresses miscibilty, specifying that the fluid being tested must mix with a standard type fluid, and this miscibilty test DOES apply to DOT 5 fluids, and can't gel, swell cups, etc. when mixed. So there! The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) also has detailed specs: J1703 and J1705. It's true that much has be written saying that silicone based fluids cannot or should no be mixed with other types, this is that old myth-perpetuating deal. Nowhere can I find a scientific study or analysis to back this story up - do a Google search yourself if you don't trust me.. There's only been two studies on this that I'm aware of: Dow-Corning, the leader in silicone brake fluids (possibly the only true USA manufacturer), did a detailed study almost 30 years ago, wherein a system was haphazardly swapped from DOT 3 to silicone, with the intent of leaving a significant portion of the fluid UNchanged. The system passed all DOT tests easily. The second test is less scientific, but, to me, more significant: Yours truly has been using DOT 5 silicone in every car I've owned or serviced since approx. 1978. I have never flushed a system! I have, in some cases, bled out most of the old stuff, in other cases, I've just topped up a DOT 3-filled system with silicone. Cars serviced by me in this fashion have stopped will from speeds over 160 MPH. I've never had a stuck caliper (or wheel cylinder) pistion since making this change universal in my fleet - even in cars stored for long periods. I've also never damaged pain from a brake fluid spill. Come to my garage - you will find 4 or 5 bottles of DOT 5 silicone, and zero of DOT 3 or 4. On your Dart, do what I do (and say): bleed out as much of the old garbage as you can, until you see purple at each bleeder screw. And don't worry about it! End of story. Rick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: 1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 9:51:26 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: Battle of the DOTs I beg to differ with you but 5 is not miscible with 3 or 4! Federal Law can say all it wants to it's still chemically not compatible also DOT 5 is not an on the shelf item unless you go to a speciality store like speed shops and the like and I don't recall seeing it on the shelf their. -------Original Message------- From: chymar01@xxxxxxxxxxx Date: 3/11/2009 6:31:39 PM To: 1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Battle of the DOTs While I understand what the article is saying about attracting the crud in the system when DOT 5 is introduced(section #4), the fact remains that the fluids themselves are fully miscible. Federal law requires that all brake fluids sold in the US must be able to work with each other. That way, if someone needs fluid NOW, they can use whatever is on the shelf. It is recommended that when switching to DOT 5 that it be done when replacing the brake system components all at once. I wouldn't switch otherwise. And definitely crack the bleeders at least once a year like it says below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: "1962 to 1965 Mopars" <1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:54:07 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Battle of the DOTs FYI if any one wants to read it! Her it is. Battle of the DOTs DOT 3-4 Verses DOT 5. Which brake fluid should I use? "With regards to the DOT 3-4 verses DOT 5 brake fluid controversy, here is an article sent to me by Mr. Steve Wall. It is one of the most professional treatments I have seen on the subject". [I had to condense this article from 6 pages to 1 due to space limitations. Brake Fluid Facts by Steve Wall As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major automotive brake system supplier, I feel both qualified and obligated to inject some material science facts into the murky debate about DOT 5 verses DOT 3-4 brake fluids. The important technical issues governing the use of a particular specification brake fluid are as follows: 1. Fluid compatibility with the brake system rubber, plastic and metal components. 2. Water absorption and corrosion. 3. Fluid boiling point and other physical characteristics. 4. Brake system contamination and sludging. Additionally, some technical comments will be made about the new brake fluid formulations appearing on the scene. First of all, it's important to understand the chemical nature of brake fluid. DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and glycol ethers. DOT 4 contains borate esters in addition to what is contained in DOT 3. These brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) and are not, as Dr. Curve implies, a petroleum fluid. DOT 5 is silicone chemistry. Fluid Compatibility Brake system materials must be compatible with the system fluid. Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of advertising, wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of chemical compatibility. Both DOT 3-4 and DOT 5 fluids are compatible with most brake system materials except in the case some silicone rubber external components such as caliper piston boots, which are attacked by silicon fluids and greases. Water absorption and corrosion The big bugaboo with DOT 3-4 fluids always cited by silicone fluid advocates is water absorption. DOT 3-4 glycol based fluids, just like ethylene glycol antifreezes, are readily miscible with water. Long term brake system water content tends to reach a maximum of about 3%, which is readily handled by the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid formulation. Since the inhibitors are gradually depleted as they do their job, glycol brake fluid, just like anti-freeze, needs to be changed periodically. Follow BMW's recommendations. DOT 5 fluids, not being water miscible, must rely on the silicone (with some corrosion inhibitors) as a barrier film to control corrosion. Water is not absorbed by silicone as in the case of DOT 3-4 fluids, and will remain as a separate globule sinking to the lowest point in the brake system, since it is more dense. Fluid boiling point DOT 4 glycol based fluid has a higher boiling point (446F) than DOT 3 (401F) and both fluids will exhibit a reduced boiling point as water content increases. DOT 5 in its pure state offers a higher boiling point (500F) however if water got into the system, and a big globule found its way into a caliper, the water would start to boil at 212F causing a vapor lock condition [possible brake failure -Ed.]. By contrast, DOT 3 fluid with 3% water content would still exhibit a boiling point of 300F. Silicone fluids also exhibit a 3 times greater propensity to dissolve air and other gasses which can lead to a "spongy pedal" and reduced braking at high altitudes. DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluids are mutually compatible, the major disadvantage of such a mix being a lowered boiling point. In an emergency, it'll do. Silicone fluid will not mix, but will float on top. From a lubricity standpoint, neither fluids are outstanding, though silicones will exhibit a more stable viscosity index in extreme temperatures, which is why the US Army likes silicone fluids. Since few of us ride at temperatures very much below freezing, let alone at 40 below zero, silicone's low temperature advantage won't be apparent. Neither fluids will reduce stopping distances. With the advent of ABS systems, the limitations of existing brake fluids have been recognized and the brake fluid manufacturers have been working on formulations with enhanced properties. However, the chosen direction has not been silicone. The only major user of silicone is the US Army. It has recently asked the SAE about a procedure for converting from silicon back to DOT 3-4. If they ever decide to switch, silicone brake fluid will go the way of leaded gas. Brake system contamination The single most common brake system failure caused by a contaminant is swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due to the introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power steering fluid, mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major damage. Flushing with mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system failure in a short time I suspect this is what has happened when some BMW owners changed to DOT 5 (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem). Flushing with alcohol also causes problems. BMW brake systems should be flushed only with DOT 3 or 4. If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the silicone will latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component deterioration and create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and eventually plug up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have already changed to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change back. Silicone is very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of your system. Just change the fluid regularly. For those who race using silicone fluid, I recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each racing session to insure that there is no water in the calipers. New developments Since DOT 4 fluids were developed, it was recognized that borate ester based fluids offered the potential for boiling points beyond the 446F requirement, thus came the Super DOT 4 fluids - some covered by the DOT 5.1 designation - which exhibit a minimum dry boiling point of 500F (same as silicone, but different chemistry). Additionally, a new fluid type based on silicon ester chemistry (not the same as silicon) has been developed that exhibits a minimum dry boiling point of 590F. It is miscible with DOT 3-4 fluids but has yet to see commercial usage. Herb 1959 Coronet 326 Poly 1963 Fury 2D/HT 6.1 1963 Sport Fury Convertible 361 1970 Challenger RT 440 1999 Durango SLT 5.9 2006 300-C Heritage 5.7 2008 SRT-8 Magnum 6.1 St. Louis, MO. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---- Please address private mail -- mail of interest to only one person -- directly to that person. I.e., send parts/car transactions and negotiations as well as other personal messages only to the intended recipient, not to the Clubhouse public address. This practice will protect your privacy, reduce the total volume of mail and fine tune the content signal to Mopar topic. Thanks! '62 to '65 Mopar Clubhouse Discussion Guidelines: http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/mletiq.html. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---- Please address private mail -- mail of interest to only one person -- directly to that person. I.e., send parts/car transactions and negotiations as well as other personal messages only to the intended recipient, not to the Clubhouse public address. This practice will protect your privacy, reduce the total volume of mail and fine tune the content signal to Mopar topic. Thanks! '62 to '65 Mopar Clubhouse Discussion Guidelines: http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/mletiq.html. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---- Please address private mail -- mail of interest to only one person -- directly to that person. I.e., send parts/car transactions and negotiations as well as other personal messages only to the intended recipient, not to the Clubhouse public address. This practice will protect your privacy, reduce the total volume of mail and fine tune the content signal to Mopar topic. Thanks! '62 to '65 Mopar Clubhouse Discussion Guidelines: http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/mletiq.html. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---- Please address private mail -- mail of interest to only one person -- directly to that person. I.e., send parts/car transactions and negotiations as well as other personal messages only to the intended recipient, not to the Clubhouse public address. This practice will protect your privacy, reduce the total volume of mail and fine tune the content signal to Mopar topic. Thanks! '62 to '65 Mopar Clubhouse Discussion Guidelines: http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/mletiq.html. This email was sent to: arc.6265@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx u/?bUrDWg.bSONJP.YXJjLjYy ?p=TEXFOOTER