Re: Battle of the DOTs

[Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

I stand corrected on availability, I have not seen it around here on the
shelves then again I was not looking for it, but their are a lot of things
done differently here in St. Louis.  Interesting article but I have had a
very different first hand experience than he described.  Bottom line if your
comfortable using it go ahead, I use dot 4 and change it every 30,000 miles
or so along with transmission fluid.  I have never had a bad master / wheel
cylinder or caliper and I just got rid of a 85 Caravan that had over 400,000
on it with the original brake hydraulic parts, shoes and pads are a
completely different story.  And by the way original trany but it was
starting to slip slightly on cold mornings before it warmed up.  I can only
relate to what I have found on our fleet of vehicles that number in the
thousands.  We have had just too many problems from commingling of fluids. 
The one point he made in his article that confuses me and I am very
skeptical about is his reference to a Dow-Corning's study of haphazardly
changing fluid.  If it was done it probably passed the same day they did the
change but I bet they did not retest about 6 months later when they had a
system full of sludge.  The transformation to sludge is a slow process and
does not happen overnight.  We used Dow-Corning DOT 5 and were given very
explicit instructions by them as to the pit falls of haphazardly replacing
and possible commingling the fluids and how we were to exercise do-diligent
s to verify that all the residual fluid was removed by bleeding until it ran
clearly the color they were supplying at the time mostly purple.  Also we
were given bright yellow caution labels suppled by Dow-Corning to be affixed
to every converted vehicle in the fleet cautioning that it had DOT 5 fluid
and never mix with any other fluid.  Again do as you are comfortable with,
all I know is I will never commingle the fluids in my car.  Also their is
nothing wrong with using DOT 5 I just don't drive my car in a way to justify
it or is it exposed to the weather extremes DOT 5 was designed for.  

    
 Herb 
 
1959 Coronet 326 Poly
1963 Fury 2D/HT 6.1
1963 Sport Fury Convertible 361
1970 Challenger RT 440
1999 Durango SLT 5.9
2006 300-C Heritage 5.7
2008 SRT-8 Magnum 6.1
St. Louis, MO.
 
 
Everything will be OKay in the end - if it's not Okay, it's not the end :).


-------Original Message-------
 
From: chymar01@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: 03/11/09 21:09:14
To: 1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Battle of the DOTs
 
 
I can buy it at my local parts stores and motorcycle shops. It's very common
now, didn't used to be.
 
Here's a good article:
 
http://www.moparaction.com/Tech/quest/BINDER_JUICE.html
 
Tech Question
 
 
Gary Boak, Chilliwack, BC, Canada, 1969 Dart Swinger 340
 
I notice in the April 04 issue you say that DOT 5 brake fluid can be used
without flushing the system. Everything I have heard and read states that
Dot 5 does not mix with anything except DOT 5. When switching to DOT 5 are
you not supposed to use new rubber?
 
Gary-
 
Another old wive's (or Mopar Muscle) tale. First, realize that DOT specs don
t specify the composition of the fluid, the rating relates only to the
boiling point. So, therefore, it would be possible to have DOT 3 fluid that
s silicone, and DOT 5 that's not (and this latter combination does exist.)
These specs are covered in detail in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard
section number 571.116, which is part of the Code of Federal Regulations,
#49, Chapter V, see for yourself at: Code of Federal Regulations, #49,
Chapter V
 
Here's an excerpt from the law on boiling points:
 
Equilibrium reflux boiling point (ERBP). When brake fluid is tested
according to S6.1, the ERBP shall not be less than the following value for
the grade indicated:
 
(a) DOT 3: 205 ÌŠC. (401 ÌŠF.).
 
(b) DOT 4: 230 ÌŠC. (446 ÌŠF.).
 
(c) DOT 5: 260 ÌŠC. (500 ÌŠF.).
 
A recent change to the law specifies that non-silicone DOT fluid be labeled
DOT 5.1. All DOT 5 fluid must be purple in color, all other grades must be
clear to amber.
 
The baziilion pages of the specs relate mostly to boiling points, viscosity,
and the fluid's effects on rubber (swelling), as well as testing procedures.
But there's also much written about compatibility. What has probably caused
the confusion is that DOT 5 fluids are tested differently than other types,
but these tests apply equally to silicone and non-silicone fluids.
Subchapter S6.5.4 addresses miscibilty, specifying that the fluid being
tested must mix with a standard type fluid, and this miscibilty test DOES
apply to DOT 5 fluids, and can't gel, swell cups, etc. when mixed. So there!
 
The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) also has detailed specs: J1703 and
J1705.
 
It's true that much has be written saying that silicone based fluids cannot
or should no be mixed with other types, this is that old myth-perpetuating
deal. Nowhere can I find a scientific study or analysis to back this story
up - do a Google search yourself if you don't trust me.. There's only been
two studies on this that I'm aware of: Dow-Corning, the leader in silicone
brake fluids (possibly the only true USA manufacturer), did a detailed study
almost 30 years ago, wherein a system was haphazardly swapped from DOT 3 to
silicone, with the intent of leaving a significant portion of the fluid
UNchanged. The system passed all DOT tests easily. The second test is less
scientific, but, to me, more significant: Yours truly has been using DOT 5
silicone in every car I've owned or serviced since approx. 1978. I have
never flushed a system! I have, in some cases, bled out most of the old
stuff, in other cases, I've just topped up a DOT 3-filled system with
silicone. Cars serviced by me in this fashion have stopped will from speeds
over 160 MPH. I've never had a stuck caliper (or wheel cylinder) pistion
since making this change universal in my fleet - even in cars stored for
long periods. I've also never damaged pain from a brake fluid spill. Come to
my garage - you will find 4 or 5 bottles of DOT 5 silicone, and zero of DOT
3 or 4.
 
On your Dart, do what I do (and say): bleed out as much of the old garbage
as you can, until you see purple at each bleeder screw. And don't worry
about it!
 
End of story.
 
Rick
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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