RE: Power Brake Conversion?

[Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

"As I said," and you just confirmed, when you go to DOT 5 you CAN NOT go
back unless you replace ALL the silicone contaminated rubber and plastic
parts in your system!!!  Personally if I got a car with DOT 5 in it I would
replace the system end to end!   Most bikes for a number of years came with
DOT 5, a silicone based fluid.  The new ones now use DOT 4 or DOT 5.1
nonsilicone based, because of all the problems they encountered.  Same
instant death in our cars is reduced dramatically because you have a real
nice classic car protecting you when you crash into something because of
brake failure unlike a motorcycle!!  Again it is up to you as how you want
to proceed!

Herb


-------Original Message-------
 
From: William Harrison
Date: 10/14/2010 9:19:22 PM
To: 1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Power Brake Conversion?
 
What about motorcycles????
I have been informed that if you use dot 3 or 4 on bikes you are looking at
instant death one day due to failure of your brake system....
One wreck is enough for me...Took a long time to heal a broken back and neck
  Don't want to do that again.
 
Later
Bill Harrison
65 Coronet 2 dr post.
 
--- On Thu, 10/14/10, Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
 
> From: Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: Power Brake Conversion?
> To: "1962 to 1965 Mopars" <1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 9:58 PM
>
>
> All I can say is your looking for trouble with DOT 5.
> Once you change over
> you cant go back unless you replace EVERY rubber part in
> your brake system.
> Dot 4 does every thing DOT 5 does except contaminate the
> system with
> silicone, unless you live on the north or south pole, or
> are running a
> dedicated race car, DON'T DO IT.  Extreme and I mean
> Extreme heat or cold
> conditions are all that I can justify the use of DOT
> 5.  I worked for the
> government and converted hundreds of vehicles over to DOT
> 5, that experience
> is the reason I wont do it to my cars.  We kept
> consistently busy fixing DOT
> 5 related brake problems.  The only reason they do
> change to DOT 5 is any
> vehicle can potentially go to any place in the world at any
> time, or that is
> the logic in the manual.  I know, I know DOT 5 wont
> absorb moisture, that is
> correct but were does the moisture go???  O ya water
> is heaver than DOT 5,
> down to the bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers to
> stay, and that is
> why they start leaking from the corrosion on the sealing
> serfaces.  If you
> completely purge or bleed your brake system every 30,000 or
> 35,000 like your
> supposed to, you will never have corrosion problems with
> DOT 3 or 4 because
> the moisture that is absorbed by the DOT 3 is gone when you
> do a system
> bleed..  Problem is no one ever purges the system, out
> of sight out of mind
> until you have brake problems, Same with Transmissions, no
> one changes fluid
> & filter or thinks about it till a problem arises and
> by then it's tooooo
> late.  O,Ya when you bleed DOT 5 were does the
> moisture go? OOps, it is
> still at the bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers
> because it is not
> absorbed and is heaver than DOT 5!!  That said this is
> not an overnight
> problem with any brake fluid, most of our cars are forty
> five years old or
> older and the brake problems are just showing up.
> Actually I think the
> moisture that is absorbed, is really a good thing if you
> service your system
> on a regular basis.  That is why I invested in a power
> bleeder, about every
> five or six years I purge the systems on my cars and never
> have any problems
> other than replacing shoes or pads.  Here is a article
> that is good
> information.  This is just my $00.02 worth from
> experience, and I know
> everyone has a conflicting opinion, this is just mine.
>
>
> Battle of the DOTs
> DOT 3-4 Verses DOT 5. Which brake fluid should I use?
> "With regards to the DOT 3-4 verses DOT 5 brake fluid
> controversy, here is
> an article sent to me by Mr. Steve Wall. It is one of the
> most professional
> treatments I have seen on the subject".
> [I had to condense this article from 6 pages to 1 due to
> space limitations.
> Brake Fluid Facts
> By Steve Wall
> As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major
> automotive brake
> system supplier, I feel both qualified and obligated to
> inject some material
> science facts into the murky debate about DOT 5 verses DOT
> 3-4 brake fluids.
> The important technical issues governing the use of a
> particular
> specification brake fluid are as follows:
> 1.    Fluid compatibility with the brake system
> rubber, plastic and metal
> components.
> 2.    Water absorption and corrosion.
> 3.    Fluid boiling point and other physical
> characteristics.
> 4.    Brake system contamination and sludging.
> Additionally, some technical comments will be made about
> the new brake fluid
> formulations appearing on the scene.
> First of all, it's important to understand the chemical
> nature of brake
> fluid. DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and
> glycol ethers. DOT 4
> contains borate esters in addition to what is contained in
> DOT 3. These
> brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze
> (ethylene
> glycol) and are not, as Dr. Curve implies, a petroleum
> fluid. DOT 5 is
> silicone chemistry.
> Fluid Compatibility
> Brake system materials must be compatible with the system
> fluid.
> Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of
> advertising,
> wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of
> chemical
> compatibility. Both DOT 3-4 and DOT 5 fluids are compatible
> with most brake
> system materials except in the case some silicone rubber
> external components
> such as caliper piston boots, which are attacked by silicon
> fluids and
> greases.
> Water absorption and corrosion
> The big bugaboo with DOT 3-4 fluids always cited by
> silicone fluid advocates
> is water absorption. DOT 3-4 glycol based fluids, just like
> ethylene glycol
> antifreezes, are readily miscible with water. Long term
> brake system water
> content tends to reach a maximum of about 3%, which is
> readily handled by
> the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid formulation.
> Since the
> inhibitors are gradually depleted as they do their job,
> glycol brake fluid,
> just like anti-freeze, needs to be changed periodically.
> Follow BMW's
> recommendations. DOT 5 fluids, not being water miscible,
> must rely on the
> silicone (with some corrosion inhibitors) as a barrier film
> to control
> corrosion. Water is not absorbed by silicone as in the case
> of DOT 3-4
> fluids, and will remain as a separate globule sinking to
> the lowest point in
> the brake system, since it is more dense.
> Fluid boiling point
> DOT 4 glycol based fluid has a higher boiling point (446F)
> than DOT 3 (401F)
>  and both fluids will exhibit a reduced boiling point as
> water content
> increases. DOT 5 in its pure state offers a higher boiling
> point (500F)
> however if water got into the system, and a big globule
> found its way into a
> caliper, the water would start to boil at 212F causing a
> vapor lock
> condition [possible brake failure -Ed.]. By contrast, DOT 3
> fluid with 3%
> water content would still exhibit a boiling point of 300F.
> Silicone fluids
> also exhibit a 3 times greater propensity to dissolve air
> and other gasses
> which can lead to a "spongy pedal" and reduced braking at
> high altitudes.
> DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluids are mutually compatible, the major
> disadvantage of
> such a mix being a lowered boiling point. In an emergency,
> it'll do.
> Silicone fluid will not mix, but will float on top. From a
> lubricity
> standpoint, neither fluids are outstanding, though
> silicones will exhibit a
> more stable viscosity index in extreme temperatures, which
> is why the US
> Army likes silicone fluids. Since few of us ride at
> temperatures very much
> below freezing, let alone at 40 below zero, silicone's low
> temperature
> advantage won't be apparent. Neither fluids will reduce
> stopping distances.
> With the advent of ABS systems, the limitations of existing
> brake fluids
> have been recognized and the brake fluid manufacturers have
> been working on
> formulations with enhanced properties. However, the chosen
> direction has not
> been silicone. The only major user of silicone is the US
> Army. It has
> recently asked the SAE about a procedure for converting
> from silicon back to
> DOT 3-4. If they ever decide to switch, silicone brake
> fluid will go the way
> of leaded gas.
> Brake system contamination
> The single most common brake system failure caused by a
> contaminant is
> swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due
> to the
> introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power
> steering fluid,
> mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major
> damage. Flushing with
> mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system
> failure in a short time
>  I suspect this is what has happened when some BMW owners
> changed to DOT 5
> (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem).
> Flushing with alcohol
> also causes problems. BMW brake systems should be flushed
> only with DOT 3 or
> 4.
> If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the
> silicone will
> latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component
> deterioration and
> create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and
> eventually plug
> up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have
> already changed
> to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change
> back. Silicone is
> very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of
> your system. Just
> change the fluid regularly. For those who race using
> silicone fluid, I
> recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each
> racing session to
> insure that there is no water in the calipers.
> New developments
> Since DOT 4 fluids were developed, it was recognized that
> borate ester based
> fluids offered the potential for boiling points beyond the
> 446F requirement,
> thus came the Super DOT 4 fluids - some covered by the DOT
> 5.1 designation -
> which exhibit a minimum dry boiling point of 500F (same as
> silicone, but
> different chemistry).
> Additionally, a new fluid type based on silicon ester
> chemistry (not the
> same as silicon) has been developed that exhibits a minimum
> dry boiling
> point of 590F. It is miscible with DOT 3-4 fluids but has
> yet to see
> commercial usage.
>
>
>
>               
>
>  Herb
>
> 1956 Plymouth Belvedere 361 4-Sale
> 1959 Coronet 326 Poly
> 1961 Belvedere Custom Suburban 318 Poly
> 1962 Dodge Dart 225 Slant Six  4-Sale
> 1963 Fury 2D/HT 6.1L
> 1963 Sport Fury Convertible 361
> 1970 Chrysler 300 Hurst 440
> 1999 Durango SLT 5.9L
> 2008 SRT-8 Magnum 6.1L
> St. Louis, MO.
>
> http://1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo42009.html
 
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Stan Kafouse
> Date: 10/14/2010 7:21:04 PM
> To: 1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Power Brake Conversion?
>
> I would definitely put a dual master cylinder. I have quite
> a few C body
> disc brake setups. If you find an Imperial you could put
> rear discs on also.
> If you stay with drums use DOT5 fluid. BIG difference in
> ANY drum brake
> vehicle.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ----
> Please address private mail -- mail of interest to only one
> person -- directly to that person.  I.e., send
> parts/car transactions and negotiations as well as other
> personal messages only to the intended recipient, not to the
> Clubhouse public address. This practice will protect your
> privacy, reduce the total volume of mail and fine tune the
> content signal to Mopar topic.  Thanks!
>
> 1962 to 1965 Mopar Clubhouse Discussion Guidelines:
> http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/mletiq.html and
> http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/general_disclaimer.html.
>
>
>
>
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


----
Please address private mail -- mail of interest to only one person -- directly to that person.  I.e., send parts/car transactions and negotiations as well as other personal messages only to the intended recipient, not to the Clubhouse public address. This practice will protect your privacy, reduce the total volume of mail and fine tune the content signal to Mopar topic.  Thanks!

1962 to 1965 Mopar Clubhouse Discussion Guidelines:
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.org/mletiq.html and http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/general_disclaimer.html. 

This email was sent to: arc.6265@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

u/?bUrDWg.bSONJP.YXJjLjYy



?p=TEXFOOTER