RE: Power Brake Conversion?

[William Harrison <bbjt3@xxxxxxxxx>]

What about motorcycles????
I have been informed that if you use dot 3 or 4 on bikes you are looking at instant death one day due to failure of your brake system....
One wreck is enough for me...Took a long time to heal a broken back and neck.  Don't want to do that again.

Later
Bill Harrison
65 Coronet 2 dr post.

--- On Thu, 10/14/10, Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Herb <zephyr9900@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: Power Brake Conversion?
> To: "1962 to 1965 Mopars" <1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 9:58 PM
> 
> 
> All I can say is your looking for trouble with DOT 5. 
> Once you change over
> you cant go back unless you replace EVERY rubber part in
> your brake system. 
> Dot 4 does every thing DOT 5 does except contaminate the
> system with
> silicone, unless you live on the north or south pole, or
> are running a
> dedicated race car, DON'T DO IT.  Extreme and I mean
> Extreme heat or cold
> conditions are all that I can justify the use of DOT
> 5.  I worked for the
> government and converted hundreds of vehicles over to DOT
> 5, that experience
> is the reason I wont do it to my cars.  We kept
> consistently busy fixing DOT
> 5 related brake problems.  The only reason they do
> change to DOT 5 is any
> vehicle can potentially go to any place in the world at any
> time, or that is
> the logic in the manual.  I know, I know DOT 5 wont
> absorb moisture, that is
> correct but were does the moisture go???  O ya water
> is heaver than DOT 5,
> down to the bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers to
> stay, and that is
> why they start leaking from the corrosion on the sealing
> serfaces.  If you
> completely purge or bleed your brake system every 30,000 or
> 35,000 like your
> supposed to, you will never have corrosion problems with
> DOT 3 or 4 because
> the moisture that is absorbed by the DOT 3 is gone when you
> do a system
> bleed..  Problem is no one ever purges the system, out
> of sight out of mind
> until you have brake problems, Same with Transmissions, no
> one changes fluid
> & filter or thinks about it till a problem arises and
> by then it's tooooo
> late.  O,Ya when you bleed DOT 5 were does the
> moisture go? OOps, it is
> still at the bottom of the wheel cylinders and calipers
> because it is not
> absorbed and is heaver than DOT 5!!  That said this is
> not an overnight
> problem with any brake fluid, most of our cars are forty
> five years old or
> older and the brake problems are just showing up. 
> Actually I think the
> moisture that is absorbed, is really a good thing if you
> service your system
> on a regular basis.  That is why I invested in a power
> bleeder, about every
> five or six years I purge the systems on my cars and never
> have any problems
> other than replacing shoes or pads.  Here is a article
> that is good
> information.  This is just my $00.02 worth from
> experience, and I know
> everyone has a conflicting opinion, this is just mine.
> 
> 
> Battle of the DOTs
> DOT 3-4 Verses DOT 5. Which brake fluid should I use? 
> "With regards to the DOT 3-4 verses DOT 5 brake fluid
> controversy, here is
> an article sent to me by Mr. Steve Wall. It is one of the
> most professional
> treatments I have seen on the subject". 
> [I had to condense this article from 6 pages to 1 due to
> space limitations.
> Brake Fluid Facts 
> By Steve Wall
> As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major
> automotive brake
> system supplier, I feel both qualified and obligated to
> inject some material
> science facts into the murky debate about DOT 5 verses DOT
> 3-4 brake fluids.
> The important technical issues governing the use of a
> particular
> specification brake fluid are as follows:
> 1.    Fluid compatibility with the brake system
> rubber, plastic and metal
> components. 
> 2.    Water absorption and corrosion. 
> 3.    Fluid boiling point and other physical
> characteristics. 
> 4.    Brake system contamination and sludging. 
> Additionally, some technical comments will be made about
> the new brake fluid
> formulations appearing on the scene. 
> First of all, it's important to understand the chemical
> nature of brake
> fluid. DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and
> glycol ethers. DOT 4
> contains borate esters in addition to what is contained in
> DOT 3. These
> brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze
> (ethylene
> glycol) and are not, as Dr. Curve implies, a petroleum
> fluid. DOT 5 is
> silicone chemistry. 
> Fluid Compatibility
> Brake system materials must be compatible with the system
> fluid.
> Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of
> advertising,
> wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of
> chemical
> compatibility. Both DOT 3-4 and DOT 5 fluids are compatible
> with most brake
> system materials except in the case some silicone rubber
> external components
> such as caliper piston boots, which are attacked by silicon
> fluids and
> greases. 
> Water absorption and corrosion
> The big bugaboo with DOT 3-4 fluids always cited by
> silicone fluid advocates
> is water absorption. DOT 3-4 glycol based fluids, just like
> ethylene glycol
> antifreezes, are readily miscible with water. Long term
> brake system water
> content tends to reach a maximum of about 3%, which is
> readily handled by
> the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid formulation.
> Since the
> inhibitors are gradually depleted as they do their job,
> glycol brake fluid,
> just like anti-freeze, needs to be changed periodically.
> Follow BMW's
> recommendations. DOT 5 fluids, not being water miscible,
> must rely on the
> silicone (with some corrosion inhibitors) as a barrier film
> to control
> corrosion. Water is not absorbed by silicone as in the case
> of DOT 3-4
> fluids, and will remain as a separate globule sinking to
> the lowest point in
> the brake system, since it is more dense. 
> Fluid boiling point
> DOT 4 glycol based fluid has a higher boiling point (446F)
> than DOT 3 (401F)
>  and both fluids will exhibit a reduced boiling point as
> water content
> increases. DOT 5 in its pure state offers a higher boiling
> point (500F)
> however if water got into the system, and a big globule
> found its way into a
> caliper, the water would start to boil at 212F causing a
> vapor lock
> condition [possible brake failure -Ed.]. By contrast, DOT 3
> fluid with 3%
> water content would still exhibit a boiling point of 300F.
> Silicone fluids
> also exhibit a 3 times greater propensity to dissolve air
> and other gasses
> which can lead to a "spongy pedal" and reduced braking at
> high altitudes. 
> DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluids are mutually compatible, the major
> disadvantage of
> such a mix being a lowered boiling point. In an emergency,
> it'll do.
> Silicone fluid will not mix, but will float on top. From a
> lubricity
> standpoint, neither fluids are outstanding, though
> silicones will exhibit a
> more stable viscosity index in extreme temperatures, which
> is why the US
> Army likes silicone fluids. Since few of us ride at
> temperatures very much
> below freezing, let alone at 40 below zero, silicone's low
> temperature
> advantage won't be apparent. Neither fluids will reduce
> stopping distances. 
> With the advent of ABS systems, the limitations of existing
> brake fluids
> have been recognized and the brake fluid manufacturers have
> been working on
> formulations with enhanced properties. However, the chosen
> direction has not
> been silicone. The only major user of silicone is the US
> Army. It has
> recently asked the SAE about a procedure for converting
> from silicon back to
> DOT 3-4. If they ever decide to switch, silicone brake
> fluid will go the way
> of leaded gas. 
> Brake system contamination
> The single most common brake system failure caused by a
> contaminant is
> swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due
> to the
> introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power
> steering fluid,
> mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major
> damage. Flushing with
> mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system
> failure in a short time
>  I suspect this is what has happened when some BMW owners
> changed to DOT 5
> (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem).
> Flushing with alcohol
> also causes problems. BMW brake systems should be flushed
> only with DOT 3 or
> 4. 
> If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the
> silicone will
> latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component
> deterioration and
> create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and
> eventually plug
> up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have
> already changed
> to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change
> back. Silicone is
> very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of
> your system. Just
> change the fluid regularly. For those who race using
> silicone fluid, I
> recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each
> racing session to
> insure that there is no water in the calipers. 
> New developments
> Since DOT 4 fluids were developed, it was recognized that
> borate ester based
> fluids offered the potential for boiling points beyond the
> 446F requirement,
> thus came the Super DOT 4 fluids - some covered by the DOT
> 5.1 designation -
> which exhibit a minimum dry boiling point of 500F (same as
> silicone, but
> different chemistry). 
> Additionally, a new fluid type based on silicon ester
> chemistry (not the
> same as silicon) has been developed that exhibits a minimum
> dry boiling
> point of 590F. It is miscible with DOT 3-4 fluids but has
> yet to see
> commercial usage. 
>  
> 
> 
>               
> 
>  Herb 
>  
> 1956 Plymouth Belvedere 361 4-Sale
> 1959 Coronet 326 Poly
> 1961 Belvedere Custom Suburban 318 Poly
> 1962 Dodge Dart 225 Slant Six  4-Sale
> 1963 Fury 2D/HT 6.1L
> 1963 Sport Fury Convertible 361
> 1970 Chrysler 300 Hurst 440
> 1999 Durango SLT 5.9L
> 2008 SRT-8 Magnum 6.1L
> St. Louis, MO.
>  
> http://1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo42009.html

>   
>  
>  
>  
> -------Original Message-------
> 
> From: Stan Kafouse
> Date: 10/14/2010 7:21:04 PM
> To: 1962to1965mopars@xxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Power Brake Conversion?
>  
> I would definitely put a dual master cylinder. I have quite
> a few C body
> disc brake setups. If you find an Imperial you could put
> rear discs on also.
> If you stay with drums use DOT5 fluid. BIG difference in
> ANY drum brake
> vehicle.
>  
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
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