RE: [Chrysler300] vins

["Doug Warrener" <dwarrener@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Russ, Thank you! You have expressed the same feelings that I have about
the importance of the authenticity of our cars. I'm sure there are many
other club members that feel the same. I was going to respond in a like
manner, but you have done it for me.   Doug Warrener - Owner of two
300H's with correct / unaltered vin and data plates and "undisclosed"
numbers.    

________________________________

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Russ Vaughan
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 6:06 PM
To: Roger Schaaf; Ben Meisner; Chrysler 300
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] vins



I think the important thing to remember about VINs is not the
originality of the car, but is the car an original. The reason it is
important directly relates to the exponentially increasing value of the
rarest of the rare 300s and the inherent fairness to the buyer in
knowing exactly what they are getting for their 50, 100, 150 to 200
large or more.

In my mind, three factors enter into the value of a certain car. 

1. Desirability, both personal and general. If someone's dad had a '65
Newport sedan, a car similar to that might be desirable to that person,
but it could be argued it is not considered a desirable car in general
to most people. A '61 Newport coupe would be just as desirable to a
person who's father owned one, but because numerous features including
the fins and the fact it is a two door, is more desirable to the general
population. 

2. Condition (including correctness) . Is the car totally satisfactory
to the new owner or is it going to need work? If it does, how much labor
and money will it take? Are rare parts missing such as rams, air
cleaners, carburetors or even the engine? Items such as Roger mentioned
are readily apparent and can be evaluated by each individual. If it were
for sale, should the buyer pay $100 less for radial tires or $1000? Is
it worth more or less with the modern paint job? How much does the
different drivetrain matter? 

3. Rarity. Is the car one of 100, 1000 or 10,000? If it's one of 100 and
has a high general desirability, chances of one finding one are very
slim and if they do, the price will be high. If it's one of one and has
zero general desirability the quantity won't matter. Anyone want an AMC
Pacer with six stick and blackwalls painted purple with a pink roof? 

Here's where rarity has an effect on value: There are 82 known surviving
F convertibles. If I find one of those 82 for sale, I have an idea of
value based on all the criteria above. If I find one that happens to be
a clone, what's the value then? It's no longer one of 82, it's one of
who knows how many? It's no longer one of 242 originals, it's one of one
constructed cars. Then the value is entirely on the individual
prospective buyer as there is no prediction of general desirability.
It's only fair for a prospecive buyer to know the car is not original so
he can use that information to form an opinion of value. For a seller to
proport a particular car is one of 82 when it really isn't, heavily
skews the value of the car in the sellers favor. 

This is where the undisclosed (is that a better term?) :-) numbers come
into play. Amazingly, most reconstructers of the past have not known
about or bothered with the undisclosed numbers and their products have
been readily discovered once examined. The fact the numbers exist and
their location is pretty well known amongst the members on the
listserver. I think it's in everyone's best interest to keep that
knowledge confidental. Maybe someday you might be the one tempted to buy
that dream letter car. Possibly the recent black G convertible on eBay
might have been one of those cars, or the coral D convertible also on
eBay a while back. Through the system the club has in place you find out
it is a fraud and are saved potentially tens of thousands of dollars. 

Just another way of looking at this topic.

Russ




Roger Schaaf <obiwan10@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:obiwan10%40comcast.net> >
wrote:
Some may one day say; who were those crazy's who continually waxed
poetically about whether or not some old car had the exact same
configuration as when built, or had the vin number that only a "correct"
car could have.

Certainly among the extreme of these would probably include those of the
Corvette establishment, where for example a 67 Corvette with a
nondescript serial number and option list could be worth perhaps 40,000
dollars in perhaps a number 2 condition. This same car(might look
exactly the same going down the road) could be worth close to a million
dollars if it had the pedigree of a L-88 with all "proper"
documentation.

Now the problem is that "any" Corvette(or you fill in the blank)
restorer worth his title is now able to completely duplicate down to the
finest details(include build sheets, Protecto Plates, window stickers,
engine and component stamping) create "any" model Corvette that he
wishes and able to defy "any" expert the ability to determine if this
car is "correct" or not. If you doubt this, just ask any art "expert"
how many museums of the world have on display(or auctions have sold),
masterpieces by famous and renown artistes that have been examined and
appraised by "experts" as authenticate but are in fact well done
forgeries. Counterfeiting a car is a walk in the park compared to this.

Now the Corvette organizations have created their so called "Bloomington
Gold, Silver etc etc" and "Duntov" and other such certification systems
to ensure that all cars deemed "correct" are indeed so. 

One day I suspect that we will all come to our senses and just enjoy
these old cars for what they were and are. Then quite possibly the days
of 2 million dollar Hemi Barracudas(4 to 5 times what a Ferrari 275 GTB
4 will bring--which IMHO is a "real" car)will end and people will see
our cars for what they really should be....cars to restore, drive, show,
love and enjoy, and not merely objects of whether or not it has the
proper birth certification and able to prove it merely by its vin
number.

Sometimes all of this correctness reminds me of the old saying of "Pull
up the rope, I'm in the boat".

Roger Schaaf
300 B (with an improper 1956 torqueflight, a 1957 rear axle to gain a
2:90 rearend ratio, radial tires, polyurethane paint, Timo(with of
course his "bug") windshield and God only knows what other sins, but
naturally the correct vin(and frame stenciling/stamping number that
matches the engine).
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ben Meisner 
To: Chrysler 300 
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: [Chrysler300] vins

I have watched the writings of the secret markings and now feel
compelled to respond. We can duplicate a $50 dollar bill so that even
the authorities cannot tell, we can duplicate credit cards, ID, Watches,
most everything we come in contact with every day. Believe me there is
someone out there who can duplicate (and do) every thing that a 300 has
on it , including Vin numbers. This club has done a good job of trying
their level best to ensure that 300"S are not clones, But when you add a
fender, a rad, a tail light , a floor board, have you not altered the
original and hence , cloned a piece of that car. My hidden serial number
for my E is located on the top side of the frame on the passenger
drivers side. If you want to check you have to take the body off the
frame . The fellow who re painted my E ( which makes it not original)
took the vin plate off, I told everyone in the club and they said put it
back as best as possible. Short of shooting the guy who did it I'll h!
ave
to live with it. The car is original , as best as I could make it. , and
that in my mind is what it is all about. There always will be those who
will work the system, human greed is such and people in this club will I
am sure try their best to weed out the fakes as they always have .
Trying to hide behind a secret identifying mark tends to portray all of
us as fakes that can't be trusted and that simply is not true. 

Meisner
Canada 

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