Probably the fastest(I did not say easy) method to find the heavy spot on a tire is to check the wheel for its heavy point, mark this point, mount the tire, check balance and see where the heavy point now is in reference to the mark that had been made on the wheel. However the problem now becomes this. Is the heavy point on the outside of the tire or on the inside. This difference can often be the problem where you have a tire/wheel in perfect static balance and yet have a wobble or vibration in your steering wheel. This is where the dynamic balance requirement comes in. Now it gets complicated. I have not done it(but now I guess I will), but I suspect that a Google(again) search will give you more information then your brain cells would wish to absorb on this topic. Roger Schaaf 300 B, Calyfornua ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Barber To: Ray Jones ; Roger Schaaf ; Warren Anderson ; Listserver ; macthehammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 11:39 PM Subject: Balancing Act The wheel/tire balancing and tube vs. tubeless thread has been amazing and informative. Thanks to all that contributed. I understand and appreciate the concept of a wheel and tire each having their own imbalance and I recall previous guidance to locate the heaviest portions of the wheel and tire separately, then place them opposite to each other before starting the balancing process. Sounds reasonable and I suppose there are several ways to find the heaviest point on the rim. My question is: how does one find the heaviest point on an unmounted tire? Obviously, if the tire has been poorly designed or fabricated with excessive overlap of plies and tread, balancing will be difficult and require more weights. Ultimately, a buyer would select their tires from a rack full of candidates based on roundness and inherent imbalance. Try that at Tires-R-Us! Perhaps one could use a perfectly-balanced armature that would center and support the tire on a horizontal spindle or even on an old "bubble balancer". When I had my tubed Remingtons mounted on the Motor Wheel wires, the tire technician was very sensitive to protecting the appearance of the rims and used the proper procedure to install the tubes and tires while babying the rims on the tire changing machine. He mounted all the clip-on weights on the inside of the rim at my direction as if this were common practice with the sport wheel customers. And several of the tire-wheel combos required a lot of lead. Based on what I've heard from you guys, when I get to supervise that process again, I'll consider having the tech find the heavy points on each wheel and tire, have them mounted in opposition and then use the stick-on lead tape on the inside of the center hub to achieve some of the dynamic balance while preserving the attractive appearance of the chrome rims. I'd be up front in agreeing to pay a premium for this premium service. Any thoughts you may have on this process would be appreciated. Rich Barber Brentwood, CA (getting chilly-just dropped below 40!) 1955 CCC Ray Jones wrote: Roger, it looks like they should have been willing to help in any way they could. In your case, which is not the norm, you are a great customer, and should be treated as such. But your original post proves my point, it's not the kind of job they are used to. Or equipped to do. I also must watch and/or be involved when I let others work on my stuff. I'm a retired Master Tech and know how I want it done. I worked all my Professional career as a "flat rate" mechanic. I retired not as wealthy as I could, by selling my customers only what they really needed right now and advised them what would be needed later. I always felt it was better to have loyal customers than angry ones. I don't even want to think about what goes on in the kitchen.... I worked on quite a few cars with very pricey wheels and very picky owners. It was a fun challenge to me to keep the added weight to a minimum. Also, less chance to have a "comeback" from a thrown weight. Chrysler 300 lesson here is: Balance and mark the wheel first, then add the tire. Slower, but more precise. Regards, Ray On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:24 PM, Roger Schaaf wrote: 14.00 per hour at this store for these guys. You are correct that I did not buy the tires there as they do not sell Diamondbacks, however have purchased 6 new sets of tires from these guys the past 4 years. My family members and neighbors have also given their business to these folks. The last set cost me 280.00 per tire for my XJR Jag(18 inch wheels). So I am not just an average rumdum customer who buys his tires elsewhere at a cheap price and have someone else mount them just to save a few bucks. My real point was that never trust anyone to mount your tires if you are not there to watch and guide. In fact I hate to have any work of any kind done on my cars or motorcycles by any shop where I can not watch the action. As most of us know and can all relate tales of woe, a large percentage of them are totally incompetent, will cheat you royally when given the opportunity, sell you much of what you do not need at grossly inflated labor charges(perhaps you all have not heard of the so called "flat rate scheme" so popular in California. I know there are many honest competent shops out there, but picking the pepper out of the flyspecks is about as hard as buying the right stocks that will be going up and not be going down. So I do most all of my own work and service where possible. I have the same feeling when eating in restaurants where I cannot see what is going on in the kitchen. Would probably really give me a good case of religion if I did however. Taping or gluing weights on the insides of the wheels is what I was suggesting as a method to almost get a good dynamic balance in the hands of a competent tire guy using a decent balancer. Most guys either cannot or will not take the time(preferring to just pound a bunch of weights on the outside of your multi-hundred dollar aluminum or wire wheels). Take a look at the beat up edges of some of the aluminum wheels that you will see on late model cars. Much of what you see could be curb rash, but a large percentage of it, is the result of mounting/dismounting of tires using machines not designed to protect these wheels from damage and or poorly trained technicians who should be doing some other line of work. Someone else noted too, those who just "cinch" them up with their 400 ft pound air wrench, thereby stripping threads or warping hubs and wheels. Watch the action when they remove your lug bolts with their 400 pound air wrench when they are doing your reverse threads on your 300. Does all this make anyone else want to watch next time you get your tires mounted at Costco? Roger Schaaf 300 B Calif ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Jones" <hurst300@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "Warren Anderson" <wranderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: "Listserver" <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <macthehammer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Roger Schaaf" <obiwan10@xxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Causion There were 2 basic problems with this tire story. First and foremost, THEY did NOT sell the tires. (So don't care much) Secondly, anybody working there for minimum wage isn't that interested in mounting "Problem" tires, not to mention "tubes". What the heck are they?. Most kids have never seen them. And if they didn't know how to balance Statically (just measure the wheel and push some buttons on the Balancer), they don't need to work on my tires. Before retiring, I worked at an Acura dealer and was the NSX tech. Had to mount and balance tires on them and each tire was different. Fronts and Backs and Lefts and Rights. You just had to focus! I always spun the bare rim first and marked it's heavy spot, if any. Then when balancing the tire/rim assembly, if the heavy spot was near where the rims heavy spot was, I broke it down and shifted the tire around the rim to get a better (less or no weight) balance. And when balancing, I hid stick-on weights behind the webs, almost dynamic balancing. I deal now with a "good ol' boy" Rural shop, and they mount everything from 8" wheelbarrow tires to 38" Heavy equipment tires. Some with tubes and tread liners. They also have a pipe bender and custom make duals....you ought to hear my Dakota! Ray It's getting time for y'all to be polishing up your rides for the Spring Meet! Be there, or be Square! Ray Jones On Jan 4, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Warren Anderson wrote: A couple of years ago I replaced my bias Remington's with Diamondback radials(had to do this twice as on the first set the whitewalls all turned brown). I had ordered them by phone and when they arrived by UPS, I threw them in my B and headed for the local tire store to have them mounted. Mind you this was a store called Wheel Works and they were one of many stores of a large chain of tire stores who you would assume would know something about tires and TUBES. We have seen a number of serious problems generated by tire shops. Big chain tire shops and local specialists. One common big mistake they make is in the use of air tools to reach final wheel fastener torque. With or without 'Torque Sticks', air wrenches on street driven vehicles cause a lot of problems. I did notice that the Flagstaff Sam's Club tire shop uses manual torque wrenches. A rotating static balance can be accomplished with weights in only one plain. The dynamic balance is only accomplished with wheel weights in two planes (when weights are required). It is good practice to powder (talc and I have used baby powder when I did not have tire talc) the inside of tires when tubes are used. Always inflate fully and deflate then reinflate to road use pressure. Tire shops that deal with passenger car tires and truck tires should have people that can deal with tube tires in an expert manner. We are not a tire shop but do work with tires like the ones on a local fleet of Hummers http://hummeraffair.com/. The tires are bias ply things from Mickey Thompson as all radial tire production is supposedly going to Iraq. Run flats for these vehicles are GREASE lubricated between the outer and inners. These we will not be working with; one very good man, one hard, full day to change out four tires we have been told. Warren Anderson Sedona,AZ To send a message to this group, send an email to: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx For list server instructions, go to http://www.chrysler300club.com/yahoolist/inst.htm Yahoo! 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