82 Imp EFI won't start/run

["Dick Benjamin" <DickB@xxxxxxxxx>]

If it idles OK with the air flow defeated (that's what you are doing when
you fool the computer into letting you start it with the lid off), that may
mean there is a problem with the air flow sensor, but that is by no means
certain.   You'll find it will run OK at idle, but it won't rev throughout
the range or pull very well.

I'm glad to learn that clearing out the nozzles made such a great
difference.  I think the main benefit of running with the lid off is that
you can monitor what the nozzles are doing, and make sure all 8 are putting
out a nice clear stream directly into the butterfly area.   Also, you can
inspect the other plumbing for leaks.

If you find no other problems in there, it is time to go on an Easter Egg
hunt for what else is wrong.  I take it that it's firing on all 8 now, and
idling smoothly?

If you have access to a spare air flow sensor, it wouldn't hurt to try it,
but these seldom fail.  Take a look at the ASDM (the electronic module on
the passenger side fender with the 5 terminal harness on it.) Make sure
there is a ground wire from the case flange of that module over to the
alternator or other solid engine ground.   Since yours is an 82, it should
be there, but some didn't have it.  This ground wire is essential.

If you have your voltmeter limbered up, take a look at the 23 volt power
supply output - it goes all over the system, probably the easy place to get
it is on the power feed to the throttle position sensor - it is the violet
wire.  It should be pretty close to 23 volts. Tell us what happens to it
when the engine stalls, in other words, does it drop before the stall
(causing it) or after the stall ( as a result).

Unplug the O2 sensor, just to eliminate that area (it should be ignored
until warm-up time is over anyway.)

You did verify the routing and health of all the vacuum lines, right?

You could try blocking off the line to the EGR to see if that is shutting
you down.  Same for the other vacuum lines (power brake, PCV, AC controls,
charcoal canister).  Just plug them all off temporarily to see if there's
any improvement.   I hope you're a golfer, golf tees are excellent for this!

As for what your blown fuse was trying to tell you, this is of course
another long search in your future.   These have been a problem every since
the first Chinese proverb mentioned them (what confuses say?).

My apologies,
Dick Benjamin
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul A. Feeney <paFeeney@xxxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: IML: 82 Imp EFI won't start/run


> Hi All,
>
> I've been reading (and enjoying) the advise so far.
>
> Last night I did a compression check and got 125-140 in all cylinders. So
> basically the pistons are still in one piece. No need to replace the motor
> (yet).
>
> I inspected the seals on the air cleaner lid and base. They seem to be
> intact and tension is on them when assembled. (I didn't do a "smoke" test
> for leaks yet).
>
> I removed and cleaned the fuel nozzle(s), as it was so easy to do, and
they
> looked so bad (brown to black) They are definitely clean and flowing now.
>
> Result = The car now fires easily, fairly smoothly, and dies. It is acting
> just like it has a bad airflow sensor on a "normal" EFI system.
>
> My next step in to run the car without the air cleaner lid and see what
> happens (I ran out of daylight before I could do it last night).
>
> Also, I was looking at my fuse box (power windows weren't working). I did
> not notice any type of diagram to list what fuses go where. I did have at
> least one fuse missing (power window) and I replaced it with a 30amp
> (probably too high an amperage, but OK to check the circuit). Well BOTH
> power windows work now, I'm afraid to think why the fuse was pulled. I'm
> sure I'll find out soon enough.
>
> My next questions is this: If I jump the wires to fool the computer to
make
> the engine run with the air cleaner lid off and it runs, does this mean
that
> the airflow meter is bad, or something else?
>
> I'm really hoping to get this car actually running over this weekend, so
> any/all help and advise will be taken.
>
> Thanks again to all that have contributed so far.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dick Benjamin" <DickB@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:28 PM
> Subject: Re: IML: 82 Imp EFI won't start/run
>
>
> > You'll get a lot of advice about engine swaps for these cars.  I am
> unaware
> > of anything with double the HP that would fit and would pass our
friendly
> > smog specs.  I too suffer with our Southern California smog rules.
> >
> > Dick Benjamin
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul A. Feeney <paFeeney@xxxxxxxx>
> > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 2:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: IML: 82 Imp EFI won't start/run
> >
> >
> > > Hi Dick,
> > >
> > > I think I'll take your advise on the compression check before I invest
> any
> > > more time/money into the car. If the motor is bad, I'll probably just
> yank
> > > it out and replace with something a little more "fun". 135HP doesn't
> sound
> > > too good to me. This would be such a nice highway cruiser with about
> 250HP
> > > or more. Nobody likes to get tailgated by kids in Hondas covered with
> > > stickers after all. Have you heard of anyone doing an engine swap into
> one
> > > of these cars? Keep in mind that I'm in So. California, so it will
HAVE
> TO
> > > pass smog. (we're cool on engine swaps as long as the engine is newer
> than
> > > the car, and 100% of the smog for the engine follows into the car,
> > including
> > > diagnostics).
> > >
> > > I'll check, and probably change the oil tonight. At the very least I
> would
> > > guess that the cylinders are getting "washed" with gas at this point.
> > You're
> > > right on when you said I'm getting too much fuel. That's why checking
> the
> > > pumps/filters hasn't been a priority for me.
> > >
> > > I'll check all the connections, take them apart, clean them with
> > electronic
> > > parts cleaner, apply a little dielectric grease and re-connect
checking
> > > continuity on the pins. I don't mind doing this type of work, as long
as
> I
> > > only have to do it once (do it right the first time).
> > >
> > > Thanks again for the info, I may check a lot of this tonight and
report
> my
> > > findings in the morning.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dick Benjamin" <DickB@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:14 PM
> > > Subject: Re: IML: 82 Imp EFI won't start/run
> > >
> > >
> > > > These make great daily drivers, as they are superbly comfortable and
> > quiet
> > > > on the road, and get very good mileage.  What they are not, though,
is
> > > > performers.  The are very slow off the line, with the 2:20 rear end,
> and
> > > > 4500 pounds being pulled by a 135 HP engine.  Once you get them
> rolling,
> > > > however, they will cruise all day at 75 and give you 22 MPG or
better
> > > doing
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > You can make a good air cleaner gasket with closed cell foam, as
used
> in
> > > > weather-strip (it must be closed cell foam, however, anything else
> will
> > > let
> > > > the air sneak in there without passing the air flow sensor.  This
> drives
> > > the
> > > > computer mad!
> > > >
> > > > The EFI is throttle body injection, with 4 nozzles feeding 2
cylinders
> > > each
> > > > at low flow rates, and 4 more chiming in for more fuel demand.  The
> > > nozzles
> > > > are controlled by fuel pressure, with the low flow nozzles opening
> below
> > > 20
> > > > PSI and the higher flow coming on stream above that.  This function
is
> > > > entirely controlled by pressure operated mechanical plungers in the
> > > > plumbing - no electronics involved at all here.  The system monitors
> > RPM,
> > > > throttle position, fuel and air flow, temperature of fuel, air and
> > > coolant,
> > > > time since startup, the O2 content of the exhaust, fuel pressure,
> brake
> > > > pedal position, ignition key position and perhaps the phase of the
> moon,
> > > and
> > > > compares this data with pre-programmed and memory data to set the
flow
> > of
> > > > fuel.  The computer is basically an analog in - analog out device,
so
> it
> > > is
> > > > not much like our modern digital controlled devices at all.
> > > >
> > > > There is no provision for on board diagnostics.  The dealers were
> > supplied
> > > > with a test set, which is little more than an box full of switches
and
> > > > meters.   Some on the IML have this device, but I have not bothered
> with
> > > > one, as I can learn quite a bit about what is going on with normal
> test
> > > > equipment.
> > > >
> > > > Chrysler dealers sometimes have parts, more often you have to run
your
> > > needs
> > > > on PartsVoice.com to see who can come up with what you need.  You
will
> > > need
> > > > part numbers, of course.
> > > >
> > > > The fuel filters are under the car near the passenger's door hinge
> post.
> > > > They are very normal in-line filters, with good availability.  Take
> the
> > > old
> > > > ones into NAPA and match them up.
> > > >
> > > > I think your problem is more likely to be too much fuel than not
> enough.
> > > If
> > > > you have flames coming out the breather, though, you may a have a
> > cracked
> > > > piston or worse.  I think it's time to do a compression check!   It
> also
> > > > would be a good idea to smell the dip stick - if you smell gas, you
> have
> > a
> > > > bomb waiting to go off there!  Drain the crankcase and refill it
> before
> > > > doing anything else to the car.
> > > >
> > > > Dick Benjamin
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Paul A. Feeney <paFeeney@xxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:38 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: IML: 82 Imp EFI won't start/run
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Dick,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the great advise. I'm planning on looking at the car
this
> > > > weekend
> > > > > (after tuning-up my 68). If the lid gaskets are bad, is this
> something
> > a
> > > > > dealer would still have, or should I improvise with a generic
seal?
> I
> > > > > bought this car for next to nothing ($250, it sat for about 5
years)
> > and
> > > I
> > > > > don't mind putting a few bucks into it as I plan to use it as a
> daily
> > > > driver
> > > > > (kind of). Heck if this engine doesn't work out, I was thinking a
> > newer
> > > > > Magnum 360, or even a V-10 from a truck.
> > > > >
> > > > >  At the parts store I ran into a little confusion on fuel filters.
> It
> > > > listed
> > > > > two types, one seemed to be "normal" with a simply "in" and "out",
> but
> > > the
> > > > > other had a third, smaller in/outlet. I haven't crawled under the
> car
> > > yet
> > > > to
> > > > > check what's under there, but I found it interesting, and
confusing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I couldn't hear any pumps, pumping, but the engine is obviously
> > getting
> > > > > fuel, as it stinks of gas and will somewhat start. Ever seen fire
> > coming
> > > > > from the crankcase breather???  (the breather hose is gone, but
I've
> > > > > completely sealed the inlet the air cleaner housing until I get a
> new
> > > one)
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a sound understanding of modern fuel injection (which may
> hurt
> > my
> > > > > chance of understanding this car). I read about the fuel
"nozzles".
> Is
> > > > this
> > > > > just a type of fuel distribution system, all feeding from a
> > centralized,
> > > > > single injector?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, is there any type of electronic self-diagnosis system on
these
> > > cars?
> > > > > Even my 97 Ram (with OBD-II) can be accessed by cycling the key.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are parts still available at the dealer for these cars, or has
> > Chrysler
> > > > left
> > > > > us out in the cold (again)?
> > > > >
> > > > > I appreciate any/all help with this project.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Dick Benjamin" <DickB@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:05 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: IML: 82 Imp EFI won't start/run
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Paul;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This may take a while, and is going to lead you into doing some
> > > research
> > > > > > yourself.   As a first step, though, remove the new air filter
> > element
> > > > and
> > > > > > reinstall the lid tightly, just to make sure you don't have an
air
> > > leak
> > > > > > induced by a poor fitting air filter element.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Assuming this is not going to help, the next step is to
carefully
> > > > inspect
> > > > > > all the wiring and vacuum hose tubing, making sure all the
> harnesses
> > > are
> > > > > > completely plugged in with all pins and connectors intact, and
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > vacuum hose routing is exactly in compliance with the
information
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > passenger inner fender sticker (it's near the hood hinge and may
> be
> > > > quite
> > > > > > dirty, but it is there.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Assuming you haven't yet found a problem, read up in the IML
> > archives
> > > > > about
> > > > > > how to run the car with the air cleaner lid off.  Basically, you
> > need
> > > to
> > > > > > fool the computer into ignoring the air flow sensor by telling
it
> > that
> > > > you
> > > > > > are cranking to start the engine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you haven't been using the IML archives long, you may need to
> > > search
> > > > > > around a bit before finding the step by step procedure, but it
is
> > > there,
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > sure, because I wrote it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Once you know the trick for starting the car with the lid off,
> have
> > a
> > > > > helper
> > > > > > try to start it while you watch the fuel plumbing lines inside
the
> > air
> > > > > > cleaner assembly.   I'm guessing you will see some liquid fuel
> > leaking
> > > > > from
> > > > > > somewhere, probably the fuel pressure switch tubing, or the
nozzle
> > > > > assembly
> > > > > > valves.   This is all very simple stuff, which you can remove,
> > > > disassemble
> > > > > > and clean with spray type carburetor cleaner, so that you get
all
> 8
> > > > > nozzles
> > > > > > spraying nicely.   Then put it back together and reassemble the
> lid
> > > > etc.,
> > > > > to
> > > > > > see if you've fixed anything.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If still no go, take a very close look at all the other air
seals
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > whole top of engine  hardware.  Pay particular attention to the
> lid
> > > > > gasket,
> > > > > > and to the one beneath the hydraulic support assembly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you don't have the two manuals for this car, get busy on eBay
> or
> > > from
> > > > a
> > > > > > literature dealer and find yourself a set, these are mandatory
for
> > > > > > maintaining this car.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't give up - just listen to those of us who have fought our
way
> > > > through
> > > > > > all the sin previously committed by the unwashed in trying to
get
> > > these
> > > > > cars
> > > > > > to run.  Once you have it all back to normal, you will be
> delighted
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > way the car starts, runs, and drives!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I doubt this is enough information to solve the whole series of
> > > > > complaints,
> > > > > > but see if you can plow through the above and report back to us.
> > > There
> > > > > are
> > > > > > 5 or 6 people on here who know a lot about these cars, and one
of
> us
> > > > will
> > > > > > jump in with good advice on every point.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you don't already have one, it is a good idea to pick up a
> decent
> > > > > analog
> > > > > > type volt-ohmmeter.  Radio Shack has an adequate one for under
> $50.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As someone else has implied, 90% of the engine problems on these
> > cars
> > > > are
> > > > > > blamed on "that damned EFI", and when it's all said and done,
> about
> > > 10%
> > > > of
> > > > > > them turn out to be actually related to its being an EFI car.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dick Benjamin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Paul A. Feeney <paFeeney@xxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:09 PM
> > > > > > Subject: IML: 82 Imp EFI won't start/run
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I just bought this car a few weeks ago and have since joined
the
> > > club.
> > > > > > > Thanks for welcoming me. I've enjoyed the club so much in the
> last
> > > > > couple
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > weeks that I've already gone out and bought a 68 Crown Coupe
> (runs
> > > > > great,
> > > > > > > 99.9% original from a man who bought it in 69).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway, about my non-running 82. It has the EFI still
installed.
> I
> > > > just
> > > > > > put
> > > > > > > new plugs in it and a new 0-2 sensor, fresh gas, new air
filter
> > and
> > > a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > battery.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Result- If I crank the car FOREVER, it will fire and
immediately
> > > > stall.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > give it some gas (step on pedal) as it fires it will increase
> RPM
> > > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > die within a couple of seconds. If I then crank it again it
will
> > > fire
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > stay running (very rough) as long as I keep my foot on the
gas.
> > WAY
> > > > DOWN
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the gas. It will NOT idle, not even close, it will run above
> about
> > > > 2,500
> > > > > > rpm
> > > > > > > only and it sounds like it's running on 5-6 cylinders only.
> > Actually
> > > > it
> > > > > > > feels like the plug wires are on wrong (they're not, I
checked).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Where should I start? I've read briefly through the info on
club
> > > > > > > website but most of it deals with vehicles that idle rough or
> have
> > > low
> > > > > > > power. Mine just isn't drivable at all. I'm sure that I'm not
> the
> > > only
> > > > > > > person to come across this problem as I see 81-83 Imps for
sale
> > > cheap
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > the time that "don't run". This car is extremely clean. No
> dents,
> > no
> > > > > rust,
> > > > > > > great interior. As soon as I get it running it will go out for
a
> > > fresh
> > > > > > coat
> > > > > > > of paint.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure all be back
> online
> > > > about
> > > > > > > things on my 68 as I learn more about it. I've already had the
> > VERY
> > > > > > painful
> > > > > > > experience of taking a power window motor off the regulator
> (watch
> > > > out,
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > thing is like a bear trap as the spring will snap it closed on
> > your
> > > > > hand,
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > got ten stitches out of it)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Paul A. Feeney
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 82 Lt Blue EFI Wire Wheel
> > > > > > > 68 Black Crown Coupe
> > > > > > > 97 Dodge Ram 3500 (tow rig)
> > > > > > > 82 Maserati Quattroporte (at least it has a Mopar Trans,
> starter,
> > > and
> > > > > A/C)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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