Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
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Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
- From: randalpark@xxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:28:47 -0400
On the practical side, if the valve is closed, the larger flat portion
of the counter weight is what you see looking down from under the hood.
There are cars where the counter weight has either been broken off, or
it has been twisted against a stuck valve and slipped. If the valve
isn't moving be sure to check it. Stuck open is okay, stuck closed is
not.
Older Imperials had a valve that was separate from the manifold, and
was fitted between the exhaust pipe and the exhaust manifold. This
worked well, and the valve was relatively serviceable. The 413
incorporated a valve that was built into the exhaust manifold, so
replacement is not as simple.
Paul W.
-----Original Message-----
From: sosmi@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
One other note: the valve is off center so exhaust gas pressure will
open the valve at high flow conditions, thats why you can see the valve
open when the engine is reved-up (if it works) And I meant Thanks Bob.
Ya'll have a nice day, Dave.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx
I just love this forum! It's a fantastic opportunity to learn so much
about
these cars. Everything from theory, to engineering, to practical
tips.
>From what I understand, the heat riser should be turned clockwise to
be held
open, as viewed from the passenger fender. I'm not going to worry
about the
engineering of the opening action until I pull the manifold and set
it up
correctly.
Again, thank you to everyone for the input.
Dan Richardson
300L Family Heirloom
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: sosmi@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Bob, not to make things fuzzy, but let me make a couple points:
first if the
> valve clock spring was truly designed to be thermostatic in
operation, it
would
> be in a protected environment, enclosed so not to be affected by
road
elements,
> such as wind generated by movement, rain, snow ,puddles etc.These
would all
> effect the spring. Also, the spring (clock style) is wound such
that when it
> closed, it's at least tension, or compression, to open the valve
increases
> tension. Now, most all clock style bi-metalic springs I've, seen,
increase
when
> heated (expand) in that case, it would tend to keep the riser valve
shut that
> much more.Hope this helps, Dave.
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Bob Merritt"
>
> > Dave is seldom wrong but I disagree with "is not a thermal
spring".
> >
> > >From page 11-5 and 11-6 of the 1962 ser vice manual:
> >
> > "When a cold engine is started the thermostatic coil exerts
enough tension
> > to keep the valve closed. This exhaust gases from the right
exhaust manifold
> > pass through the exhaust crossover branch in the intake manifold
and into
> > the left exhaust manifold.
> >
> > When the spring heats up, it loses tension and the valve opens."
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, same page of the service manual shows the valve is open
when rotated
> > clockwise, as others have previously replied correctly.
> >
> > Bob Merritt
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 1:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: IML: Heat rise r rotation?
> >
> >
> > > The clock spring on the riser valve is not a thermal spring.
Opening and
> > > closing, is a function of exhaust gas flow(volume). When
closed, all
> > > exhaust gas runs through the passage under the carb, this
pre-heats the
> > > mixture for better cold weather warm-up.However if the valve is
stuck shut
> > > ALL exhaust from the right bank, will pass through the manifold
with less
> > > than a one square inch of passage.This only leads to poor
performance, and
> > > lean carb conditions. There was also a small coil spring, for
anti-rattle
> > > at low speed, or idle.Ya'll have a nice day, Dave.
> > >
> > > -------------- Original message --------------
> > > From: David Wilker
> > >
> > >> Y ou could try finding another car with a working valve, and
try it. See
> > >> which
> > >> way the valve opens. The spring will expand when it gets hot,
so my guess
> > >> would
> > >> "against" the spring pressure. Maybe try moving it when the
engine is
> > >> running
> > >> and seeing which way makes the engine run best?Isn't there a
cross-over
> > >> passage
> > >> through the intake manifold to allow that side of the exhoust
to go out
> > >> the
> > >> other manifold? I think it was to heat the intake up on cold
starts.
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> David C. Wilker Jr.
> > >> USAF (RET)
> > >>
> > >> ---- randalpark@xxxxxxx wr ote:
> > >> I have seen the counter weight slip on these, particularly
between '64
> > >> and '66. The only way to determine with certainty that the
valve is
> > >> open is to remove the exhaust pipe and look. The idea of
comparing the
> > >> amount of exhaust coming from the right side vs. the left side
is a
> > >> good one, but most Imperials built since 1962 have a single
exhaust
> > >> pipe, rendering this test useless.
> > >>
> > >> If the valve is stuck closed the car will over heat. If the
valve isn't
> > >> stuck, then it will always open when the engine is "reved".
The counter
> > >> weight isn't strong enough to keep it closed. If it is moving,
it is
> > >> working fine. If it isn't moving, then you should be
concerned.
> > >&g t;
> > >> Paul W.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: nicholasadamo@xxxxxxx
> > >> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Sent: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 5:38 pm
> > >> Subject: Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> So Dave, I've wondered about this too. If the valve is open
(engine
> > >> warm position), it is rotated all the way clockwise??? The
cold
> > >> position would be all the way counter-clockwise or too the
left? I am
> > >> correct??
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: sosmi@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> To: mailing-list@imperialclub. com
> > >> Sent: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 4:52 pm
> > >> Subject: Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> NOT a dumb question, If memory serves me correctly, the valve
rotates
> > >> clockwise. There should be a stop pin which prevents the valve
from
> > >> opening past center.If you feel a lot of restriction opening
the valve,
> > >> its possible to break the spot welds on the valve, and it will
remain
> > >> shut.If you have dual exhaust, have someone listen to the
right pipe
> > >> for a louder exhaust sound, when you open the valve.This is
one of the
> > >> simplest issues for performance, and mileage that goes
un-checked.When
> > >> we remove the manifolds, we remove the valve completely.Ya'll
have a
> > >> nice day, Dave.
> > >>
> > >> Â
> > >>
> > >> -------------- Original message --------------
> > >> From: therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>
> > >> > Dumb question time:
> > >> >
> > >> > On a '67 440 (from an Imperial - required content), looking
at it
> > >> from the
> > >> > passenger's fender, which way does the heat riser rotate as
it opens?
> > >> I suspect
> > >> > mine does not work correctly and I want to wire it open.
> > >> >
> > >> > Dan Richardson
> > >> > 300L Family Heirloom
> > >> >
> > >> > ----------------- http://www.imperialclub .com
-----------------
> > >> > This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List.
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> > >> > reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response
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> > >> > Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
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> > >> >
> > >>
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-----------------
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> >
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Attached Message
From:
therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx
To:
mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject:
Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
Date:
Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:12:54 +0000
Attached Message
From:
sosmi@xxxxxxxxxxx
To:
mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject:
Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
Date:
Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:44:21 +0000
Bob, not to make things fuzzy, but let me make a couple points: first
if the valve clock spring was truly designed to be thermostatic in
operation, it would be in a protected environment, enclosed so not to
be affected by road elements, such as wind generated by movement, rain,
snow ,puddles etc.These would all effect the spring. Also, the spring
(clock style) is wound such that when it closed, it's at least tension,
or compression, to open the valve increases tension. Now, most all
clock style bi-metalic springs I've, seen, increase when heated
(expand) in that case, it would tend to keep the riser valve shut that
much more.Hope this helps, Dave.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bob Merritt" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Dave is seldom wrong but I disagree with "is not a thermal spring".
>From page 11-5 and 11-6 of the 1962 service manual:
"When a cold engine is started the thermostatic coil exerts enough
tension
to keep the valve closed. This exhaust gases from the right exhaust
manifold
pass through the exhaust crossover branch in the intake manifold and
into
the left exhaust manifold.
When the spring heats up, it loses tension and the valve opens."
Also, same page of the service manual shows the valve is open when
rotated
clockwise, as others have previously replied correctly.
Bob Merritt
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
> The clock spring on the riser valve is not a thermal spring.
Opening and
> closing, is a function of exhaust gas flow(volume). When closed,
all
> exhaust gas runs through the passage under the carb, this pre-heats
the
> mixture for better cold weather warm-up.However if the valve is
stuck shut
> ALL exhaust from the right bank, will pass through the manifold
with less
> than a one square inch of passage.This only leads to poor
performance, and
> lean carb conditions. There was also a small coil spring, for
anti-rattle
> at low speed, or idle.Ya'll have a nice day, Dave.
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: David Wilker
>
>> You could try finding another car with a working valve, and try
it. See
>> which
>> way the valve opens. The spring will expand when it gets hot, so
my guess
>> would
>> "against" the spring pressure. Maybe try moving it when the engine
is
>> running
>> and seeing which way makes the engine run best?Isn't there a
cross-over
>> passage
>> through the intake manifold to allow that side of the exhoust to
go out
>> the
>> other manifold? I think it was to heat the intake up on cold
starts.
>> --
>>
>>
>> David C. Wilker Jr.
>> USAF (RET)
>>
>> ---- randalpark@xxxxxxx wrote:
>> I have seen the counter weight slip on these, particularly between
'64
>> and '66. The only way to determine with certainty that the valve
is
>> open is to remove the exhaust pipe and look. The idea of comparing
the
>> amount of exhaust coming from the right side vs. the left side is
a
>> good one, but most Imperials built since 1962 have a single
exhaust
>> pipe, rendering this test useless.
>>
>> If the valve is stuck closed the car will over heat. If the valve
isn't
>> stuck, then it will always open when the engine is "reved". The
counter
>> weight isn't strong enough to keep it closed. If it is moving, it
is
>> working fine. If it isn't moving, then you should be concerned.
>>
>> Paul W.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nicholasadamo@xxxxxxx
>> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 5:38 pm
>> Subject: Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
>>
>>
>>
>> So Dave, I've wondered about this too. If the valve is open
(engine
>> warm position), it is rotated all the way clockwise??? The cold
>> position would be all the way counter-clockwise or too the left?Â
I am
>> correct??
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sosmi@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 4:52 pm
>> Subject: Re: IML: Heat riser rotation?
>>
>>
>>
>> NOT a dumb question, If memory serves me correctly, the valve
rotates
>> clockwise. There should be a stop pin which prevents the valve
from
>> opening past center.If you feel a lot of restriction opening the
valve,
>> its possible to break the spot welds on the valve, and it will
remain
>> shut.If you have dual exhaust, have someone listen to the right
pipe
>> for a louder exhaust sound, when you open the valve.This is one of
the
>> simplest issues for performance, and mileage that goes
un-checked.When
>> we remove the manifolds, we remove the valve completely.Ya'll have
a
>> nice day, Dave.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: therichardsonfamily@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> > Dumb question time:
>> >
>> > On a '67 440 (from an Imperial - required content), looking at
it
>> from the
>> > passenger's fender, which way does the heat riser rotate as it
opens?
>> I suspect
>> > mine does not work correctly and I want to wire it open.
>> >
>> > Dan Richardson
>> > 300L Family Heirloom
>> >
>> > ----------------- http://www.imperialclub.com -----------------
>> > This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List.
Please
>> > reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be
>> > shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
>> > Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
>> > To UN-SUBSCRIBE, go to http://imperialclub.com/unsubscribe.htm
>> >
>>
>>
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>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free
>> from AOL at AOL.com.
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________________________________________________
>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free
>> from AOL at AOL.com.
>> =0
>>
>> ----------------- http://www.imperialclub.com -----------------
>> This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please
>> reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be
>> shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
>> Administrators should be sent to iml.webmonster@xxxxxxxxx
>> To UN-SUBSCRIBE, go to http://imperialclub.com/unsubscribe.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------- http://www.imperialclub.com -----------------
>> This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please
>> re ply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be
>> shared with everyone. Private messages (and attachments) for the
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>>
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