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Axle end play...
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poly
Posted 2023-04-17 5:17 PM (#628962)
Subject: Axle end play...



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I'm in the process of overhauling the brakes on my 57 Plymouth so I removed the axles to change the seals.
The end play on the axles seemed a bit much so looking at the FSM it says .013 to .018 float. That still seems a bit much on a tapered bearing......Does anyone have any experience with running them a bit tighter?
Also, are the bearings greased at installation or do they get oil from the axle tube?
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poly
Posted 2023-04-24 11:33 PM (#629117 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Someone must have an opinion on bearing running clearances....
I certainly wouldn't run the front wheel bearing loose so why does the rear allow so much end play?
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geoffs60
Posted 2023-04-24 11:54 PM (#629119 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: RE: Axle end play...


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I run the end float at .012-.014 with no problems, and yes grease them well. Diff oil does not get to the axle bearings.
Geoff
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wizard
Posted 2023-04-25 9:30 AM (#629123 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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The endplay is divided in 2, hence .013 means 0.065 in each tapered bearing, which i totally ok.
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Shep
Posted 2023-04-25 9:58 AM (#629126 - in reply to #629123)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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You mean .0065, right?
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wizard
Posted 2023-04-25 10:21 AM (#629127 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Yes, sorry, I have some problems with the inch system??
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Shep
Posted 2023-04-25 10:37 AM (#629128 - in reply to #629127)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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None of my guys in the car club can do fractions in the thousands. Forget the metric system. Lol

Edited by Shep 2023-04-25 10:39 AM
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dels56
Posted 2023-04-25 11:44 AM (#629131 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...


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If you have had both axles out and are replacing bearings and seals you need to read the section in the service manual on how to set “centring and end play”. It is not really that complicated. After following the instructions for setting end play then you can grease the wheel bearing. I always pack the bearing as you typically do the front wheel bearings. Maintenance requires that you periodically grease the rear wheel bearing via the 1/8” grease zerk port on the housing, where it lines up with the bearing, if you pack the bearing correctly you probably will never have to add more grease. When you are installing the inner wheel bearing seal, pack the inner side of the seal with grease to hold the spring in place as you drive the seal in. I have found the spring floating on the axle shaft when the owner complained that they just had bearings replaced and they had brakes locking. This is due to the dumb dumb that did the work just pounded the seal in and the spring popped out as he was pounding. Good luck.
Del
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57chizler
Posted 2023-04-25 1:15 PM (#629135 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: RE: Axle end play...



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poly - 2023-04-17 2:17 PM

the FSM it says .013 to .018 float. That still seems a bit much on a tapered bearing......Does anyone have any experience with running them a bit tighter?


IMO, the rear axle tapered bearings aren't that much different than the front spindle tapered bearings which can be be run tighter and even with a little preload.

Edited by 57chizler 2023-04-25 1:17 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-04-25 4:21 PM (#629139 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Not true! The rear axle gets quite hot during use and is much, much longer than the spindle at the front. That length translates to a sizable thermal expansion that needs to be accounted for properly if you want your bearings to survive. Sven is right, that the end play is measured with the other axle at it's furthest point out, so that large number translates to .0065-.009" at each end, which isn't a bad amount. Nevertheless, I usually tighten it up to .01 - .013" total end play, and it works well there. Another reason to make it tighter than spec is that once you take it for a spin, and things settle in where they want to be, you end up with more play than you set it to. So if you want to do it properly, you need to set it, drive it for a week, and then re-set it again.

But if you put it at 0, I can guarantee you are going to be destroying your bearings.
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Viper Guy
Posted 2023-04-25 4:25 PM (#629140 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Never heard of running front wheel bearings tighter and even with a preload. I have always tightened (snugged) them up and then backed off one notch on the alignment
nut.
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Shep
Posted 2023-04-25 5:05 PM (#629145 - in reply to #629140)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Any wheel bearing requires some degree of preload, tapered especially.
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57chizler
Posted 2023-04-26 1:01 PM (#629180 - in reply to #629139)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Powerflite - 2023-04-25 1:21 PM

Not true! The rear axle gets quite hot during use and is much, much longer than the spindle at the front. That length translates to a sizable thermal expansion that needs to be accounted for properly if you want your bearings to survive.


Thermal expansion affects both the housing and the axle shafts. There are rear disc kits available that use the taper bearings adjusted to near-zero end play.

Sven is right, that the end play is measured with the other axle at it's furthest point out, so that large number translates to .0065-.009" at each end, which isn't a bad amount.


If a car travels absolutely straight that might be true but, with the thrust block between the axle shafts, any deviation from straight ahead shifts the load to one side and bottoms the bearing in its cup...with one bearing bottomed in its cup, the total clearance is what the opposite bearing/cup sees.

I still contend that the bearings can be run A LOT tighter than factory spec and practice what I preach.
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-04-26 1:13 PM (#629181 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Two reasons why your statement isn't valid:
1. The axle & housing are made from different material with different thermal expansion ratios. They are similar though, if not, you wouldn't have a hope for having decent clearances with how long they are.
2. The axle and housing are at different temperatures, so they expand to different lengths.

I agree that you can tighten up that spec too, but your statement about having 0 gap or preload is really dumb. If you set it that tight, I challenge you to measure the gap after a month of driving it. I can guarantee you that it will be much larger than what you started with - partly because it settled in, but also partly because you have partially damaged your bearing surfaces to create the needed gap.
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57chizler
Posted 2023-04-26 2:24 PM (#629184 - in reply to #629181)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Powerflite - 2023-04-26 10:13 AM

Two reasons why your statement isn't valid:


Agree to disagree.


Edited by 57chizler 2023-04-26 2:25 PM
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Viper Guy
Posted 2023-04-26 7:53 PM (#629197 - in reply to #629145)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Shep - 2023-04-25 4:05 PM

Any wheel bearing requires some degree of preload, tapered especially.


Perhaps you might be referring to bearing fit where the bearing outer race has to be tight in the housing?

The bearing rollers must have clearance and cannot run on bare metal against metal which would exist if the rolling elements were deprived of grease which the way I understand preload would take the clearance out of the bearing.

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poly
Posted 2023-04-26 8:29 PM (#629200 - in reply to #629197)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Thanks for your input.....I may lean towards running them a little tighter than spec.
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Shep
Posted 2023-04-26 8:38 PM (#629201 - in reply to #629197)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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When you install or repack front wheel bearings, about 001-005 end play in the bearing is recommended, that translates into a slight preload. Plenty of info on the net pertaining to this technique. Most cars we check in the shop, drum brakes especially, the wheel bearings are too loose, you can actually "rattle" the drum around some.

Edited by Shep 2023-04-26 8:40 PM
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wizard
Posted 2023-04-27 8:02 AM (#629219 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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I go with the shop manual values per default - the values are set by experience and knowledge.
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poly
Posted 2023-06-04 12:45 AM (#629973 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Another question for the experienced... I've bought new wheel cylinders from Rockauto and was wondering whether it is a good idea to dismantle them and check/lubricate them before installing them..or are they ok to just fit as is?
Thanks
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wizard
Posted 2023-06-04 2:12 AM (#629975 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Some m/c has been mounted wrong, so, yes check them before mounting
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Shep
Posted 2023-06-04 11:06 AM (#629981 - in reply to #629975)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Few years back, I got new wheel cylinders from Napa for the 55. Looked in side at the condition of the bores, 2 were slightly pitted from damp shelf life
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ABloch
Posted 2023-06-04 2:55 PM (#629985 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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While we are deviating from the original thread I will bring it back around with my question.
I had to replace a seal that was leaking and decided to redo all the bearings when the thrust buttons wound up in the bottom of the carrier.
During reassembly I installed the brake backing plates (no dust shields)gave one side a 'whack" and measured .020- .025.
Went over to the other side, gave it a "whack" and then measured another .020- .025 on the opposite side. However
After reassembly with the dust shields installed and the backing plates torqued to 35lbs all the end play has disappeared.?

Does this make sense or sound about right or do I need to go back and add shims to obtain the end play after complete reassembly.

Trying no to overthink it...
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wizard
Posted 2023-06-04 4:37 PM (#629986 - in reply to #629985)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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ABloch - 2023-06-04 8:55

Do I need to go back and add shims to obtain the end play after complete reassembly?

Trying no to overthink it...


Yes, absolutely

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Powerflite
Posted 2023-06-04 4:50 PM (#629987 - in reply to #628962)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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You need to measure the end play with both sides tightened down completely in it's final assembly. If the other side can move, then you are just pushing one axle out while pushing the other one in. So yes, you need to add some shims into there if there is no play. It's best if you can start with too many shims, measure the amount of play you have, and calculate which shims you want to remove to get you to where you want to be.

The original 742 clutch style sure grip thrust pins can easily fall out from sticking to the end of the axle while you pull it out because the pin between them doesn't hold them very well. To prevent that, you can get a new, stiff roll pin to hold them together so you don't have that kind of trouble again.
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poly
Posted 2023-06-05 8:59 PM (#630013 - in reply to #629981)
Subject: Re: Axle end play...



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Shep - 2023-06-05 3:06 AM

Few years back, I got new wheel cylinders from Napa for the 55. Looked in side at the condition of the bores, 2 were slightly pitted from damp shelf life


Ok, so I think I may as well open them all up just for peace of mind...
Thanks for your input......
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