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Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-07 3:21 PM (#607482)
Subject: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


Member

Posts: 21

Hi! I'm new to this forum, so bear with me.

I recently bought my 1961 DeSoto, and finally jacked it up, yesterday.
I knew the pushbutton adjustment wasn't right, because, though it would go into reverse or a forward gear, it usually wouldn't go back to neutral, when the neutral button was pushed. It would stay in the previous gear.
I expected to find the adjustment wheel for the cable, but instead found that the tranny must have been replaced with a '59 or earlier tranny. There's no adjustment wheel. I have a Motor's Auto Repair Manual for 1963, which has a picture of my non-wheel gear shift cable setup. But, the picture doesn't show any detail of what's on the other side of the cable mounting bracket. And, the text description of the '59, vs earlier models, is different. So, I have no reference for the adjustment parts involved. (Cable adjustment clip screw?)
I have copies of the 1960 DeSoto shop manual and the 1961 Supplement. But, I would hate to have to start buying earlier shop manuals, to find pics of my setup. Especially since I don't know what this tranny came out of.
And, I've been on various websites that give various directions for doing the adjustment (put it in Reverse...put it in Neutral....push the cable. ....pull the cable) that differ from the books.
The gold standard I found is a Chrysler document that says to drop the tranny pan, so you can see where the detent ball is hitting, and splitting the difference in the cable play. But! That means dropping the tranny pan. How do I specify the gasket if I don't know the year? And, I'm working in my driveway, in the cold, with the car jacked-up, and have never dropped a tranny pan, before. I'd rather not, if I don't have to.
Also, I may have messed-up the parking brake when I forgot to release it when I made the car drive in first gear. It didn't seem to hold the car, after that. But, when I finally looked at the setup behind the tranny, I don't see any plate to remove, to do the adjustment. It just looks like a completely enclosed unit, with 2 cables going into it. What do I have?
Also, the engine crankcase drain plug is completely stripped. I suspected something was wrong, when I noticed the oil was looking old. Someone before me had done a lot of work on the car. Why didn't they change the oil? Now, I know why. But, I had already siphoned everything I could, out of the dipstick tube, and refilled with 5w30. So, the engine has fresh oil, for now. But, can someone tell me if there are variations in the drain plug size? I want to have the correct plug, on hand, before I try to remove the stripped one.
I've just decided to hold off on my '64 Chrysler questions, to focus on this car, for now.
Thanks.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-07 4:03 PM (#607483 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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I am sure that others will have better answers but in the interim, you don't have to drop the pan to determine neutral with 100%. You can either jack the car up on the drivers side (to tilt the transmission away from the neutral safety switch) and remove the neutral safety switch so you can determine where neutral is *OR* you can use a multimeter to determine when the neutral switch is engaged/not engaged without any other measures.

Neutral Safety Switch removed (without draining pan (but jacking the car on the driver's side) to expose the neutral safety switch lever:



So you have an idea about the detents and the neutral safety switch lever:



Some potentially helpful info:



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-01-07 4:14 PM




(TorquefliteCableAdjustment_1.jpg)



(TorqueFliteCableAdjustment_2.jpg)



(TorquefliteCableAdjustment_3.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments TorquefliteCableAdjustment_1.jpg (184KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments TorqueFliteCableAdjustment_2.jpg (176KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments TorquefliteCableAdjustment_3.jpg (238KB - 10 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-07 4:23 PM (#607484 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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Hi Vicky, welcome to the forum, as you already have seen this is the place with the helpful guys.

The transmission is a TorqueFlite A466, early version (the pan gasket is the same as the later A466 with the adjustment wheel) We call the the cast iron hog, much because they're heavy......

You can download manuals from http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=109

First of all, check if the cable housing is fixed in the clamp and doesn't move when someone pushes the buttons.
If loose, check for any leads to the correct position (grease, dirt etc).
Check that the push buttons doesn't bind in the bezel (there should be a felt with holes for each button and sometimes the felt is warped or rottened away partly)
Check if the pushbuttons work with the bezel removed.

As for adjusting the gear shift cable correctly, wheel or clamp - theres no other accurate method than to pull the pan. The crescent with detents for the ball must be adjusted in a way that leaves the ball as centered as possible in ALL positions. I always pull the pan when I need to adjust or confirm adjustment. This way you can clean out the pan and understand by the residue which state the transmission is in.

As for the engine pan drain plug, I guess it's 5/8-18, like this https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/chrysler,1961,newport,5.9l+361ci...






(Parking_Brake_Fig_03-rez.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Parking_Brake_Fig_03-rez.jpg (107KB - 10 downloads)
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-08 4:03 PM (#607508 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

Silly me! I was wondering why no one had replied to my post...I had to make the page refresh!
Thank you guys, for responding!
But, though I'm learning, I'm still in the dark. I can't see any details in Fig. 17, and Fig. 29 doesn't look at all like my setup.
I know I will have to loosen the "cable to tranny adjustable mounting bracket screw", but am not sure if it's the one I saw protruding a little under the mounting bracket, or if it's behind the bracket, where I can't see it. I only have the car jacked up about 11". I'm sure I could see better if the car was higher, but I just bought a new 2-ton jack, and it's struggling with the weight of the car. (Harbor Freight. It's the same model that seemed to handle my '64 Chrysler OK, but that one froze up after non-use. I can't handle the weight of a stronger jack.)
Though I understand the concept of the cable adjustment, what I really need to understand is the operation of the cable to transmission function. That layout of the components is a good start. So, the cable pushes or pulls (?), something that rotates (?), to align the notches/detents (?) (for each gear), that then engages with the (?)
The more I can visualize the operation, the better I can understand the various instructions for the adjustment. With my limited current understanding, I think the cable needs to be adjusted "out" a tiny bit. When the car is in reverse, then the neutral button is depressed, it's often still in reverse. Likewise, when in drive, and the neutral button is depressed, it was often still in drive. So, without knowing the magic between the cable and the notches, I thought the cable was "in" too far to allow the (?) to jump over to the neutral notch.
But, the Chrysler document I read, said the amount of play in the cable that one splits, is about 3/32"! That's a heck of a small amount to play with. I could easily make it much worse than it currently is!
Currently, the cable is very secure to the mounting bracket. And, I can drive the car. (And, I may be able to stop it, now that I have managed to get brake fluid into the empty master cylinder. If you guys know the '61 setup, you know how difficult that "simple" procedure is.) I don't see brake fluid leaking from anywhere, yet, so I hope the previous mechanic just skipped filling the master cylinder. I do see new front brake hoses, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I don't have to rebuild the brakes, yet.
But, back to the tranny: are there numbers I could look for, that would tell me what year tranny I have? Can I safely assume it is a Torqueflite?
And, the article I read by George Riehl, where he seems to be an expert on these trannys, taught by a retired head guy at Chrysler, says that type "F" fluid should be used, not type "A". (?)
I'm going to try to upload some pics I took with my smartphone, while under the car. Again, my parking brake setup doesn't look like the pictures in my manuals, or what was just provided.
Also, I'm no longer even sure what motor is in the car. I couldn't find any letters/numbers under the distributor, as the '61 would have. The motor does run and sound great, with a lot of pep. Someone did a lot of work on this car. A lot of fresh components, overall very clean. But, also a lot of oil/fluid leaks that I have to clean up, and start analysing.
Such an adventure! So much fun!
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-08 4:06 PM (#607509 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

How do I attach pictures?
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-08 4:11 PM (#607510 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


Member

Posts: 21

OK, I get a message that I can't upload pictures due to "low memory". I usually get this message when a website doesn't support uploading from a Smartphone. I may have to get onto someone's PC, to be able to show my pics, unless someone has a better idea.
Maybe I could email or text the pictures to someone there, and you could post them here for me?
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-08 5:05 PM (#607511 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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So, you're still confused but on a higher level?

The pushbutton unit pushes and pulls the cable, which in turn rotate the detent crescent, which in turn pulls the shift valve to the selected gear.

If the spring loaded ball is not centered well in the detents, it might allow the shifter valve to leak fluid to the wrong gear.

When the neutral switch is actuated, it's possible to start the engine. If You can start the engine with other buttons than N, it means that someone connected the earth on the starter relay directly to the body (earth, minus). This must be fixed.

Avoid to drive the Car until You sorted out the cable adjusting and the neutral switch.

As for posting photos Dave made instructions, är under frequently asked
.......


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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-08 5:33 PM (#607512 - in reply to #607508)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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1. How to attach photos? Must be < 250kB in size and must be .jpg, not .jpeg (from an iPhone)

More details: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64340&...

2. How the shifter buttons work: As Sven (wizard) suggested the button mechanism pushes or pulls (back) the cable and therefore moves the shifter "comb" in the transmission (the thing with the detents) to the correct position - which in turn controls fluid flow through the transmission valve body - which in turn selects the correct gear.

The shifter box:





The shifter comb (removed from the transmission to show how it works) (previously posted in this thread):



Check your inbox for a limited time offer to up load your photos. I am starting to think that you have a later (than 1962) Aluminum case 727 torqueflite.





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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-08 6:26 PM (#607513 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

I don't know if my confusion is at a higher level. It feels more slanted.

In the layout so kindly supplied by 56D500boy, the "detent crescent" is the part that shows the gear names labeled on it, and rotates on the kickdown axle?
The "cable housing" drawn looks like a fork controlling flattened sides of the kickdown axle. (?)
But, this doesn't explain how the to/fro adjustment of the cable controls that detent crescent. How does it?
How does the detent crescent pull the shift valve? Is the shift valve located elsewhere, underneath?
The spring-loaded ball is contained in the cylindrical piece protruding from the top of the assembly? So, nothing adjusts that ball. It's just a matter of aligning the notches of the detent crescent with it? And, the roundness of the notches can allow the ball to sit at other than the center of the notch?
I don't know that the neutral starting switch is wired wrong.
When the enclosed transport arrived with my car, last month, the driver couldn't start it. I managed to squeeze into the car, and found that it had been left in Drive. When I put it in Neutral, the car started.
I had the car dropped off at a friend's property, where it was legally safe until I could get my appointment at DMV, to register the car and get the plates. While there, I experimented with shifting the car, and found the problem of its going into neutral, but it was always while the car was running. I never tried to start the car, while it was in gear. It was at this time that I messed-up the parking brake. At that time, the service brakes were still working, but becoming spongy.
When the recent day came for me to have the car towed to my driveway, I found that the brakes were gone (master cylinder empty). The tow truck guy did a great job getting the car into my narrow driveway, but it did require some driving back and forth, to position the car. Each nerve-wracking time, I would put the car into forward or reverse, give it a tiny amount of gas (peppy engine!), and when I wanted to stop, I hit neutral (which I felt it go into), then turned off the key, and the car would stop. So, it would be in neutral, the next time I started the car.
I haven't touched the brake pedal since I added the fluid to the reservoir. I'm hoping any air in the system might rise up, as I let it sit. So, I'm definitely not driving the car until I have brakes. And, I still don't know how to adjust the parking brake, since it doesn't match any pictures.
But, are you saying that driving the car, when it seems to go definitely into a gear, but is out of complete adjustment (let's fluid into another gear, as you said) will cause damage to the transmission?
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-08 6:39 PM (#607515 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

Dear 56D500boy,
I just looked at my pictures. Just one of them was 2.2Mb. I tried cropping it, but it only went down to 1.7Mb. And, yes, it's jpeg, though I have an Android phone
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-08 6:59 PM (#607516 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


Member

Posts: 21

So, I'm having problems even typing my replies. Sometimes I can no longer type, until I hit the preview button, when it opens a window that I can continue typing in.
Other times, there is no preview button, and I just have to hit submit, then start over in a new window.
Just now, my text overwrote the box and its buttons, and I had no choice but to back arrow, and lose the entire message. I assume these problems are all due to the software not liking my Android.
So, please, how do I determine which year my tranny is?

Type A or type F fluid?
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-08 7:13 PM (#607517 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

So, dear 56D500boy, what you are calling the shifter comb, us what Sven is calling the detent crescent?
But, HOW is the gear shift cable connected to that part?
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-08 9:15 PM (#607522 - in reply to #607517)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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VickyDeSoto - 2021-01-08 4:13 PM
So, dear 56D500boy, what you are calling the shifter comb, us what Sven is calling the detent crescent?
But, HOW is the gear shift cable connected to that part?


Yes. We are probably calling the same part different things but it is the same part. Sven is in Sweden. I am in Canada, eh?

The shifter cable enters the transmission, into a housing that covers the mechanism that connects to the shifter comb/detent crescent.

This is my Torqueflite's shifter cable entering the housing, etc. (BTW, the clamp has a slot which allows the cable adjustment - the slot is about 1/2" long). See below:





Edited by 56D500boy 2021-01-08 9:17 PM




(57WindsorTFInA56DodgeShowingShifterCable.jpg)



(TF-PF-20191126_181540.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 57WindsorTFInA56DodgeShowingShifterCable.jpg (117KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments TF-PF-20191126_181540.jpg (112KB - 10 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-09 2:17 AM (#607530 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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If your neutral switch works correctly, then the adjustment isn't far off.
The problem might not be the cable adjustment.
We need some photos of the trans.....

As for transmission fluid, use Dexron III, thats what most of us use.
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-09 2:25 AM (#607531 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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The pushbutton unit gives the cable a fixed distance for each gear selected. By moving the cable housing in the clamp, the detent crescent will be centered against the ball. You can see the hook on the detent crescent that goes in the shifter valve on Daves photo above.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-09 2:39 AM (#607532 - in reply to #607531)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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wizard - 2021-01-08 11:25 PM
The pushbutton unit gives the cable a fixed distance for each gear selected. By moving the cable housing in the clamp, the detent crescent will be centered against the ball. You can see the hook on the detent crescent that goes in the shifter valve on Daves photo above.


Here is another photo of the valve body with the shifter comb/detent crescent and the shifting mechanism that the shifter cable is attached to under the cover on the transmission where the cable comes into the transmission.



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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-09 2:44 AM (#607533 - in reply to #607530)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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wizard - 2021-01-08 11:17 PM
If your neutral switch works correctly, then the adjustment isn't far off.
The problem might not be the cable adjustment.
We need some photos of the trans.....


Here are a couple of photos of Vicki's shifter cable as attached to her car's transmission. (She sent me the photos and I processed them for her - something I only do when I am curious about the problem and the poster is new and is having problems resizing the photo (which is not the same as cropping the photo).

Two things bother me:

1. The rubber cable cover is off but yet the cable isn't leaking fluid (I thought that it should - perhaps there isn't enough fluid in the transmission - hence the shifting problems)

2. I expected to see at least part of the adjustment slot in the cable clamp. I see nothing. (??)





(Vickis61DesotoShifterCable_1.jpg)



(Vickis61DesotoShifterCable_2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Vickis61DesotoShifterCable_1.jpg (216KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments Vickis61DesotoShifterCable_2.jpg (243KB - 10 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-09 4:11 AM (#607535 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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I see the slot in the first photo Dave. Also, I see the shinier crescent where the bolt once sat for a longer time. It's the early TorqueFlite.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-09 11:20 AM (#607544 - in reply to #607535)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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wizard - 2021-01-09 1:11 AM
I see the slot in the first photo Dave. Also, I see the shinier crescent where the bolt once sat for a longer time. It's the early TorqueFlite.


Okay. Then adjustment is a) possible and b) normal.

Agree on the early cast iron "pig" (hog). SooEEE!!

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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-09 11:24 AM (#607547 - in reply to #607533)
Subject: 1961 Desoto Parking Brake Adjustment



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I went to MyMopar.com and downloaded, saved and opened the 1960-61 Chrysler Factory Service Manual (FSM) which covers the 61 Desoto.

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=109

At the start of Chapter 4 Parking Brake it says that the parking brake is fully enclosed to keep dirt out and goes on about how to adjust the brake (nasty nasty nasty - give me an inspection plate any day).

Here are photos of Vicki's parking brake followed by the FSM pages:





(VickiesParkingBrake_1.jpg)



(VickiesParkingBrake_2.jpg)



(1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_1.jpg)



(1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_2.jpg)



(1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_3.jpg)



(1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_4.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments VickiesParkingBrake_1.jpg (181KB - 11 downloads)
Attachments VickiesParkingBrake_2.jpg (228KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments 1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_1.jpg (157KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments 1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_2.jpg (157KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments 1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_3.jpg (212KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments 1960-61ChryslerAndDesotoParkingBrake_4.jpg (180KB - 10 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-09 12:32 PM (#607552 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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As for the parking brake, it's not really thought through from the factory. The brake adjuster wont allow the final click as the shoes will make contact with the drum.

First of all, release the parking brake pedal and loosen the cable adjuster up over the pedal a couple of turns.

If you look on fig 3 parking brake, just over the "ball end of control cable" and down to the left, you can see that the service opening has a shape that should allow you to check the free play between the shoe and the drum - it should be .016 to .020". The opening is almost big enough, but for to be able to check the free play the opening must be filed up slightly.

When I work on the parking brake, I always remove the drum, clean and inspect everything and finally, before mounting the drum, just holding it over the shoes and check the free play with a feeler gauge. Then I mount the drum and tighten the nut to specs.

On Vickys ball and trunnion universal joint (Detroit joint) we can see that the rubber boot has some dry cracks and on the parking brake drum we can imagine that grease has been trown out. So, it's due to check the drive shaft anyway - demounting it is not difficult - then there's free acess to the nut that holds the drum in place.


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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-09 3:22 PM (#607559 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

Ok.
First of all, the pages you've so kindly provided, are the same as what's in my 1960 FeSoto
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-09 4:20 PM (#607560 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

DeSoto manual.

But, though, I've studied the pictures very hard, I still don't see how the gear shift cable attaches to the detent crescent, or the "shifting mechanism". And, I don't see the "hook" that connects the crescent to the shifter valve.
It looks like my gear shift cable is missing a rubber cover, but why would you expect tranny fluid to leak from it, since it's external to the tranny. Or, does the entire end of the cable go into the case? Which, again, I can't see.

Regarding the parking brake, that rusty cable is for it, as I see it. What is that other cable nearby, with the black cover and the shiny metal attachment?
So, either there is no inspection plate, or it is invisible, because it is completely inaccessible.
Yes, I would like to take the assembly apart, to check the condition of the shoes, etc. But, I've never disconnected a driveshaft, before. And, though you say it's not difficult, and I have a large assortment of large size, but general tools, I'm wondering if I will be able to manage the job, working alone, with the car jacked up on stands. What section of the manual would I start from? I'm very mechanically inclined, but can I botch this so bad, that the car would be unmovable?
I do know an excellent mechanic, that I trust. But, he's so good, that he's always booked solid, with peoples' daily drivers. I understand that they take precedence. But, my cars sit in his lot for ages, waiting for him to get around to them. I once dropped off my '61 Falcon, that only needed a pre-formed stainless steel fuel line installed. (I couldn't work it in, with the car jacked-up.) The car sat in his lot for about a year, during which the carb gelled up! He has a nice crew of very young mechanics, most of them new, that I don't know. I.e., I don't want the inexperienced kids messing with my car. So, I need to narrow down the work I request to be done, as much as possible. And, if parts need to be replaced, I need to have them on-hand, as much as possible. So, with the parking brake, should I get shoes and springs, just in case? (The car is supposed to only have about 71K miles on it.) And, what else do you see, other than the one rubber boot, that I should get a replacement for?
By the way, when the car is completely cold, and not running the tranny fluid is about 1/4" below full. I saw no evidence of slipping, or not shifting, except for not re-entering neutral.
That article by George Riehl, said type "F" tranny fluid, not "A", and using "Mercon or Dextron" would lead to early tranny failure. I don't know if the Dextron was my typo, when I wrote down the notes, or if it is different from the Dexron III that you use. But, the discrepancies leave me afraid to do anything.
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-09 4:37 PM (#607561 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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The cable housing goes into the transmission, sealed by an o-ring, but the cable is in directly contact with the fluid, meaning that without the rubber, there might leak some fluid through the cable housing. Leave this for now.

The black cable with the alumium ferrule is the speedometer cable.

It's totally safe to use Dexron III, I've used it for over 12 years.

If you can lock the parking brake, then it's easy. If You can turn the drive shaft with the parking brake fully engaged, then it's more difficult
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-09 4:42 PM (#607562 - in reply to #607560)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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The Torqueflite shifter cable enters the transmission through a "tunnel" in a shifter housing cover. Under that cover there is a lever that is connected to the shaft that has a the other end, the detent crescent (or what I've been calling the "shifter comb" (think "Rooster comb").

Here are three photos that should help you:




Edited by 56D500boy 2021-01-09 4:44 PM




(DaveFs1736413Case57WindsorTFShowingPortsOnLeftSide.jpg)



(CastIronTFShifterCableAttachmentSpringClip.jpg)



(57WindsorAirCooledA466TorqueFlite_ShifterPlateAssembly_Top.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveFs1736413Case57WindsorTFShowingPortsOnLeftSide.jpg (153KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments CastIronTFShifterCableAttachmentSpringClip.jpg (109KB - 10 downloads)
Attachments 57WindsorAirCooledA466TorqueFlite_ShifterPlateAssembly_Top.jpg (212KB - 10 downloads)
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-10 9:29 PM (#607597 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

OK! After taking a fresh look, and with the help of the last pictures, I have finally pulled all the texts, pictures, comments, and different nomenclature, together, and filled in all the gaps/missing links/misunderstandings. Please guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've got it:

The gear shift cable goes into the "tunnel" in the "shifter housing cover" (= transmission manual level housing). In the 1st of the pictures, it extends to the left of the shiny housing That housing cover is integral to the case, in the "wheeled" '61 tranny. On my older "non-wheeled" model, that housing is bolted on.
Either way, inside that "tunnel", the "cable adapter" grips the notch around the end of the cable, via the "cable lock spring". Instructions I've read, to release the cable by putting a screwdriver through the hole for the neutral safety switch, and "gently pushing the protruding portion of the cable lock spring" are now completely clear, via your picture, Dave. I can see how the spring descends into that notched opening in the cable adapter, allowing it to grip the notch near the cable end.
I now see how the "cable adapter" attaches to the shaft, and can rotate it. That was never shown in the pictures of the comb/crescent.
The "detent ball" that should center in each detent notch, doesn't do anything except hold the position of the comb/crescent.
The shifter comb/crescent doesn't control the fluid flow through the valve body, directly. Rather, the "hook" that Sven mentioned, is the 2nd finger (next to the "safety switch lever" finger) which has the right angle bend in it. It engages with (slides/pushes/pulls) the "shifter valve", via the wide notch it sits into. This "shifter valve" is the cylindrical piece protruding from what I think must be the "valve body", and I'm assuming it releases fluid to control the gears, depending on how deep into the body it's pushed.
Am I right?
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-10 9:56 PM (#607598 - in reply to #607597)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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Good on you Vicky. You got it almost 100% correct.

The only minor detail is the spring that catches and holds the cable in place on the mechanism under the aluminum cover (in the non-wheeled pre-late 1959 Torqueflites) can be released by removing that "bolt" sticky out the side of the cover. With that out, you can use a flat-bladed screw driver to push a tang on the spring and release its grip on a slot near the end of the shifter cable.



This is what the spring looks like:



This photo shows where the spring clips into the groove near the end of the shifter cable.



Close up of the shifter and the valve body piston where they meet (you can also see the neutral safety switch "arm" and the crescent detent with the detent ball (in the background):



The various channels that the valve body piston position controls fluid flow:







Edited by 56D500boy 2021-01-10 10:03 PM
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-10 11:46 PM (#607601 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

Yes, Dave, I got all that, as I said, thanks to your pictures. But, isn't that "bolt sticking out" the Neutral Safety Switch, as I called it?

The spring, in the first picture you provided, shows three loops around the cable adapter. In the package, it looks like there's only two. Are there different versions?

What is someone doing with the drill bit, in the other picture of the shifter comb and shifter valve? Just curious.

I always knew transmissions were complex. That last picture confirms it.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-11 1:42 AM (#607605 - in reply to #607601)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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Vicky: My responses are in CAPS beside yours


VickyDeSoto - 2021-01-10 8:46 PM

Yes, Dave, I got all that, as I said, thanks to your pictures. But, isn't that "bolt sticking out" the Neutral Safety Switch, as I called it? NO. THE NEUTRAL SAFETY SWITCH IS THE BIGGER ALUMINUM NUT THING WITH THE BRASS ELECTRICAL CONNECTOR

The spring, in the first picture you provided, shows three loops around the cable adapter. In the package, it looks like there's only two. Are there different versions? YES. TWO VERSIONS I THINK

What is someone doing with the drill bit, in the other picture of the shifter comb and shifter valve? Just curious. I WAS TRYING TO HELP SOMEBODY MEASURE A CLEARANCE AND WAS USING THE DRILL BIT TO DO SO.

I always knew transmissions were complex. That last picture confirms it. YUP. VERY COMPLICATED BUT YOU CAN FIGURE THEM OUT - IF YOU HAVE A FACTORY MANUAL



Hope that helps



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-01-11 1:43 AM
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-11 4:48 AM (#607608 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


Member

Posts: 21

Wow! I'm glad you pointed that out, about the location of the neutral safety switch. So, there's a lot more different between the older and the "wheeled" cable housing, other than the fact that the former is bolted on. In my '61 DeSoto manual, the neutral switch is in the same relative position to the cable, as the bolt is in your picture. So, the comb, and other components within the housing must be shaped/sized very differently. Was the only purpose of that bolt, to allow access to the locking spring, to permit removal of the cable?

So, in the previous picture you provided of your Torqueflite
tranny, the bolt head with the white tape under it, is the "bolt", and the one a few inches back, to the right, with blue showing at the base of the wire, is the neutral starter switch?

And, what connects to the shaft, that my manual calls the "throttle lever", is the "kickdown" lever?
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-11 11:01 AM (#607609 - in reply to #607608)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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VickyDeSoto - 2021-01-11 10:48 A

Was the only purpose of that bolt, to allow access to the locking spring, to permit removal of the cable? YES

So, in the previous picture you provided of your Torqueflite
tranny, the bolt head with the white tape under it, is the "bolt", and the one a few inches back, to the right, with blue showing at the base of the wire, is the neutral starter switch? YES CORRECT

And, what connects to the shaft, that my manual calls the "throttle lever", is the "kickdown" lever?


Hi Vicky, see above for the answers to your questions.

As for the throttle lever and linkage, that is correct denomination since the linkage from the accelerator moves the throttle valve for different shifting points depending on slow start, moderate and WOT. The downshift (kickdown) is one of the functions for the throttle valve.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-01-11 11:52 AM (#607610 - in reply to #607608)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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VickyDeSoto - 2021-01-11 1:48 AM
And, what connects to the shaft, that my manual calls the "throttle lever", is the "kickdown" lever?


Your throttle pressure control lever (also used as the kickdown lever) is shown in your photo as the rusty looking rod with the spring thing.



Regardless of the location on the various transmissions, the neutral safety switch looks like this:





This photo from Phil Courant in France, shows the tang on the shifter detent crescent (aka "rooster comb") where it contacts the plunger on the neutral safety switch. It also shows the bottom of the throttle pressure/kick down shaft
and how it controls yet another plunger/piston/control valve in the valve body:



Neutral safety switch information: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69708&...



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-01-11 11:53 AM
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-11 1:20 PM (#607623 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

Thank you so much for the further information!

Yes, I understand that the plunger on the Neutral Switch completes a ground connection, when it contacts the Neutral tang/finger, allowing the car to start. So, the fact that that bolt didn't have the stud for the electrical connection should have alerted me to the fact that it wasn't the Neutral Switch, despite its location.

In the last picture, that other plunger function you mention, controlled by the bottom of the shaft, is that the kick-down control Sven mentioned? (I'm assuming WOT means wide-open-throttle?)

There's another feature of the car, where it will go into Neutral gear, not Reverse, if the car is moving too fast. But, I assume that involves another part of the transmission, probably near where the speedometer cable goes in.

I've never gotten involved with the kick-down adjustment, before. I have another car that will stall, when I accelerate from a stop, unless I hit the gas pedal fast. I assumed it was a problem with the carb's accelerator pump (it's a small, single-barrel carb), but, now I'm wondering if the tranny's kickdown adjustment is involved?

I know I also need to check for the 3 1/2" play in the parking brake assembly, before I get involved with that. You can see the new hose clamp holding the parking brake cable, before it goes into the drum. I'm hoping whoever replaced the tranny, serviced the parking brake assembly. But, those 4? bolts on the back of the drum, look like they haven't been touched. Is removing those 4 bolts the first step in "dropping" the driveshaft? I haven't convinced myself to get involved with that, but am just starting to think about it.
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ronbo97
Posted 2021-01-11 3:14 PM (#607629 - in reply to #607623)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Drain plug removal: Get a large pair of vice grips. I prefer the 10CR. Open them up sufficiently, then bite into whatever is left of the drain plug. Be sure they are locked in as tight as possible. Now hold them tight, forcing them in a counter clockwise position, and give the end of the vice grip progressively stronger taps with a 3 lb. sledgehammer. All the energy from the taps should travel directly thru the vice grips and force the drain plug to turn in a counter clockwise direction. Once free, you can just remove it by hand or with the vice grips.

Ron

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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-12 11:53 AM (#607649 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


Member

Posts: 21

That is what I had planned to do, if I attempted it. But, I have to consider what made this head get stripped, in the first place. There is no visible rust in this setup. Everything is clean, the plug head is shiny. So, I'm wondering if the guy who worked on the car, tried to put a 5/8" plug in a 1/2" hole (since there's some discrepancy on which size it takes, and I'm not even sure this is the original 361 cu-in engine). If he got frustrated, he may have stripped the head, trying to get the plug in. If that's the case, and I get the plug out, those threads are going to be damaged. I have a tap and die set, but trying to clean up threads, while lying under the engine, with oil dripping out, is not my idea of fun.
So, I've decided to let that project go, and let my mechanic deal with it. On a lift, it will be easy-peasy. In the meantime, the Wix fuel filter looks rather new, and I put the fresh 5w30 in, so the engine is safe.
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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-12 11:55 AM (#607650 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

Or, maybe he cross-threaded it. Whatever.
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-12 3:09 PM (#607660 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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Vicky, if theres LocTite hydraulic seal on the threads it's needed to heat it up with a heat gun for to release the grip of the sealant.
I've drilled and re-threadened several plugs - the trick is to let all oil drain out and apply a good coatin of grease to the drill and the die. That will catch most of the chips and residue.
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ronbo97
Posted 2021-01-12 5:21 PM (#607663 - in reply to #607650)
Subject: Re: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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VickyDeSoto - 2021-01-12 11:55 AM Or, maybe he cross-threaded it. Whatever.

Yeah, I'd bet that's what happened. Anyone that would force a drain plug into a pan should have all their tools taken away. I hate to leave someone else's stupidity on my car. So that plug would be gone ASAP.

Ron

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VickyDeSoto
Posted 2021-01-13 12:50 PM (#607684 - in reply to #607482)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport


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Posts: 21

Not me, Ron. Right now, the car is running great, and if filling the master cylinder has solved my brake problem, I can drive the car wherever I want. (I intend to drive with chocks in the car, even when the parking brake is working properly.)
I spoke with my mechanic ( who's always booked solid, with peoples' daily drivers), and he'll call me when he's ready to work on my car. I'll have him do the drain plug, and drop the gas tank, which he'll send out for cleaning. (I want to deal with the sending unit, myself.) Working on a small gas tank (like my '61 Falcon), that you can pull from the trunk, is a cinch. But, a large tank, from underneath? No, thank you.
I get great satisfaction from doing things, myself. But, anything with the risk of complications that will render my car inoperable in my driveway, I don't want to get into. Not unless I have to. And, right now, I don't have to.

Sven, when you worked on heat-gunning and drilling out those drain plugs, were you working outside, with the car jacked up? Or, do you have a lift? Did you wear your safety goggles, while drilling? If so, how do you keep them from fogging up, from condensation, in the cold weather?

The next few days, here, will be unusually warm. I just bought two new gallons of POR15, and am going to start hitting the rust. I intend to completely coat the underbody with it, first coat black, second coat silver, just as I did my '64 Newport. (It came out beautiful!)

My mechanic was non-committal on doing the drive train, so I may be back with more questions on that.
Thanks, guys!
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wizard
Posted 2021-01-13 1:28 PM (#607687 - in reply to #607684)
Subject: RE: Problems with 1961 DeSoto and 1964 Chrysler Newport



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VickyDeSoto - 2021-01-13 6:50 PM

Sven, when you worked on heat-gunning and drilling out those drain plugs, were you working outside, with the car jacked up? Or, do you have a lift? Did you wear your safety goggles, while drilling? If so, how do you keep them from fogging up, from condensation, in the cold weather?


I'm totally old school Vicky, I don't have a lift, so I jack up the cars which I work on and put them on 4 jack stands. I work both inside and out, depending on the actual situation.

I have glasses, so I only wear safety goggles when I'm cutting or grinding steel. I have safety face tight safety goggles with air vents on top and on the sides - works very good.

Good luck
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