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| I have owned my 55 Chrysler St. Regis with the infamous Kelsey Hayes brake booster setup for 15 years and have struggled with the brakes since I first got the car. I have had the booster unit rebuilt twice by White Post restorations and still have to stand on the brakes to have any hope of stopping. In addition to the booster rebuilds I have replaced or restored the rest of the braking system. On this week's episode of Wheeler Dealers on the Velocity channel they were working on a 1963 Volvo PV. the Volvo did not stop all that well and they considered a disc conversion but instead decided to install a new set of Kevlar brake shoes.....yes the same Kevlar used in bullet stopping vests. the Kevlar has a much more aggressive grip and thus is more effective in stopping a vehicle. Because the Kevlar shoes are more aggressive they, of course, do not last as long....but on vintage vehicles that is not a big deal if they really work. While this is not the perfect solution to my lack of boost to my brakes it could at least provide some improved braking when I stand on the pedal. I have spent an hour or so on the internet searching for Kevlar shoes for vintage vehicles....so far no luck. There are plenty of suppliers for Kevlar disc brake pads but I have found no shoes for vintage cars or trucks. Does anyone have any experience with Kevlar shoes and if so know where to possibly find them? Today I talked with Booster Dewey in Portland (who is always very nice to try to help!!). They do not work on the 1955 Kelsey Hayes unit (can't say as I blame them). I told Dewey that while I do not like to mess with originality I am at the point where I would consider an aftermarket upgrade if it would not break the bank and if there was adequate evidence that the conversion is effective. Dewey suggested contacting AAJ Brakes...also in Portland I think. Dewey said he thought they offer conversion setups and might be able to help if I wanted to go in that direction. Has anyone had experience with these folks?? |
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Expert
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Location: Connecticut | OK, let's back up a second. Consider this: When these cars were sold new, do you think they had adequate stopping power ? Do you think other folks with the same setup are experiencing no problems at all ? I'd answer both questions 'yes'. Some questions for you: - When was the last time you did a brake job, as in replacing all hoses, shoes, wheel cyls, springs, etc. ?
- Are the shoes the correct ones for your car ? Are they tapered at each end ?
- When installing the shoes, did you align them using an Ammco 1750 brake tool ? It will be nearly impossible to get them to align with the drums without this tool. This is the likely cause of the problem that you are experiencing.
It's not the booster. So stop wasting your money on rebuilds. You need to do all of the above or your brakes won't work properly. Ron |
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Expert
Posts: 4042
Location: Connecticut | The is the Ammco 1750...
 (Ammco Brake Tool sm.jpg)
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 Ammco Brake Tool sm.jpg (233KB - 169 downloads)
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Member
Posts: 27
| Thank you so much for your response Ron. I certainly agree that Chrysler would not have rolled out these cars had they anticipated the brakes were going to be problematic down the road but as we see with all the safety recalls that happen today (GM ignition switches to Tanaka airbags) despite all the technology and testing things get on the market that do not always perform as planned. I can't help but think that if Chrysler was happy with the 1955 Kelsey Hayes setup that they would have discontinued it after one year but perhaps there were other reasons. I am also certain you are correct that other owners of these cars are not experiencing problems but I do know from what I have read over the years there are others who are. That is why I have sought advice from knowledgeable. experienced folks like you!
I am the third owner of the car. It was purchased new in Lexington, Ky. When the original owner passed away the next door neighbor purchased the car from the estate in 1984 (41,000 mi). The second owner was a professor at the University of Kentucky. I purchased the car from the professor in 2002....it had 55,600 miles on it at that time. Today it has 57,200 miles and has always been garaged. The professor had the car serviced by the same independent shop that had serviced the car for the original owner. I have owned dozens of collector vehicles (I currently have 6). I can generally diagnose a problem and do light mechanical work but am not a mechanic. I will not bore you with all the steps that have been taken but will say I had a really hard time finding anyone who would work on the brakes. I got brake shop recommendations from other collector car owners, would take the car to them only to have them decline my request to see if they could improve the braking. They would cite the Kelsey Hayes setup as the reason. About 4 years ago I took the car to a well known shop owned by a respected collector. They did a complete brake rebuild. I provided the shop with an original shop manual and a list of vendors and resources from the Chrysler club. The booster was sent to White Post (twice). Once finished the improvement in braking was barely noticeable. Whether are not they performed the steps you outlined or if they aligned the shoes with the Ammco tool I cannot say. The car has been driven less than 500 miles since the rebuild. From what you have shared with me it sounds like they probably did not. After receiving your response I found an online a 20 page Chrysler Tech Sez Service Guide for Aligning and Relining brakes on 1948 Imperials and Chryslers. From your note it sounds like the process for 1955 models is the same as the 1948. I also searched for the Ammco 1750 tool and found a few old ads but did not find anything currently for sale or rent. Sorry for the long note Ron but again I really appreciate your response and the tool photo.
Joe
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Expert
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Location: Connecticut | It's very difficult to locate the tool. I was lucky enough to find an old time brake shop that had it. In fact, they didn't even know they had it until I pointed it out to them. It was hanging on the wall, covered with dust. You may want to follow the same route that I did. Chrysler probably did away with the 55 setup in an effort to simplify the procedure. All these 'well known' brake shops recommended by 'respected collectors' will drain your wallet and not fix the problem. If you have the FSM, why not open it up and read about the correct way to fix these brakes ? BTW, you would be having this problem whether the car had power brakes or not. So it's not the booster. Ron |
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Location: Valley Forge, Pa. |
Hello ?,
I totally empathize with you. I bought my 1960 Plymouth Suburban with 60,000 on it. That was 10 years ago. Sorry but I DO NOT know the brake system of a 1955 Chrysler but I NEVER felt the brakes in MY car worked as well as they should have and neither have any of the mechanics that worked on it. I have owned several pre-1960 Chevys that had solid brakes and if not, I could determine why they were poor and fix them.
The first thing I did was come to this forum and it was suggested to go AAJ brakes. I did the AAJ brakes and installed the front disc and the dual master cylinder and ALL that was listed in the instructions. REGUARDLESS of what else you do, a dual M.C. is highly reccomended.!
It is sooooo frustrating and embarrasing to keep coming back to this forum for 8 years, time after time and tell them that I have dumped ANOTHER $1000 into this system and IT STILL HAS NO BRAKES. When these people's brakes do all the things that they are supposed to do and work, it is really HARD for them to understand what it is like when mine don't work. I am always getting the "just adjust them, change the flluid, make sure this is that, wrong MC, ect." I HAVE DONE ALL that MANY times but they don't work.
I am NOT a brake person but I DO KNOW it is a simple system. Beside MY attempts after the AAJs, I have now been to 6 "professional" garages and have put WELL over $5000[brakes only], 7 different sized MCs, all new lines & hoses, new wheel cyls, new shoes, pads, rotors, drums, lines, new proportioning valves, check valves, into the brakes and they STILL DO NOT STOP!!! as they should. My car is non-power at this point. Litterally GALLONs have been bled through by gravity, pushed. pulled.
Honesly, if I were you, I would toss, in storage anything original to your car to have ANY brakes because it can all be put back IF some idiot would like too. Stopping is a lot more important than nostalgia.
When I get back from carefully/defensivly towing my boat on a 6 Hr drive to up-state N.Y. next weekend with these poor brakes, I am going to install the GM system that uses the P.S. pump instead of vacuum for power brakes.
I guess, my beliefs are now that there are just some cars that DO NOT do everything they are "supposed" to do like everybody elses cars and I totally understand you.
The AAJ brakes IF they are applicable to your vehicle, should work fine but save your old brakes. Put the rare Kelsey stuff in a box. It can alway be put back for "correct" reasons. I have listioned to those that say they work great but MAYBE yours are the exception! DO NOT keep spending money to get to nowhere.
MY bottom line, IF it is a 100% show car and that's how you want it, deal with it. IF you would like to use your classic and enjoy it. Save the parts and up grade.
In a few weeks, when I put the GM power brake system in that uses the P.S. pump, i will send to this forum, pictures, prices, and all that is involved.
Please remember the difference between a true "SHOW" and something to safely enjoy.
Later,
Karl. |
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Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | P.S. I hope that didn't come off wrong? These people at this forum have been so helpfull and I am not suggesting anything but that. IF they can't help you, than it is probably not ment to be helped. |
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Expert
Posts: 3398
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Done right, my 55 stopped great, 67 booster and dual master, Kanter shoes, the adjustments are the key to getting them right with full contact on the drums. |
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Member
Posts: 27
| Hi Ron.....It appears I really need to find a shop that has the tools and specialized equipment required to bend, grind and adjust the shoes properly. I have neither the equipment nor the expertise. The brakes are the only issue I have ever had with the car....it drives and rides like a dream...I love the car and would just like to be able to enjoy it on a nice Sunday afternoon drive without running over someone.
Joe
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| Thanks for your reply Karl. It truly sounds like you have been on the same long road I have been traveling. As a long time vintage car and truck owner I too have been so frustrated with my inability to resolve the braking problem. As I stated in my first post I do really want to keep my vehicles as original as possible but am strongly considering the AAJ upgrade. My concern with the upgrade is finding a shop that can successfully accomplish the job. I don't want to trade one problem for another when I know, as you so accurately stated, these are simply systems. If I can find a shop that has the appropriate tools and equipment to do the adjustments (bending, grinding, measuring etc) Ron suggested and are outlined in the 1948 Tech guide. I want to give that a try before doing an upgrade. I am certain there are shops out there who could knock my problem out in a day.....I just have not found them yet.
I look forward to hearing how your move to the GM system works out....I wish you good luck!!
Joe |
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Member
Posts: 27
| Hi Shep.....thanks for your reply and confirmation about needing proper adjustment. I assume your 55 had the Kelsey Hayes booster to begin with and you replaced it with a 1967 Chrysler booster and master...Is that correct?
Joe |
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Expert
Posts: 3398
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Correct. |
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Location: Connecticut | JKelly0657 - 2016-07-17 10:41 AM Hi Ron.....It appears I really need to find a shop that has the tools and specialized equipment required to bend, grind and adjust the shoes properly. In all likelihood, there will be no bending required. Grinding is accomplished with a piece of 80 or 100 grit sandpaper. The shoes I got from Andy Bernbaum were already tapered at the end. I don't know where you live, but most small to medium sized cities have a shop that's been in business forever. You will need to show them a photo of the tool, since they won't have any idea just by description. That's what I ran into. It wasn't until they showed me what they had that I was able to point out the tool to them. Also, if you're a member of the Desoto club, there's a guy that will rent out the tool to members. It was also used on some early 50s F o r d s. Ron |
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| I have an old timer friend who had a repair shop many, many years ago and he kept a lot of his equipment when he retired. I have not talked to about this issue. I will give him a call....he might actually have the Ammco or the Miller tool or if not he may know someone who does. I belonged to the WPC club for several years and have owned a couple of DeSotos but did not join the club. That sounds like a good option if I cannot turn up something locally. I live in Kentucky....just outside of Lexington.
Joe |
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Member
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Thought I would provide a little update on my 55 St. Regis braking issues. I have not had much time to focus on the brakes but have picked up a couple of leads on folks who I hoped might be able to assist me. The first lead took me to a couple of local brothers who are master hot rod builders. I went to their shop and was warmly greeted (not always the case as you will see later). They showed me a couple of the really cool hot rod projects they are currently working on. These fellas are really, really good! As we toured their projects I explained my situation and while they quickly stated they were not expert on original equipment collector car brakes if I should decide to convert to modern disc brakes they would be more than happy to assist since they have done countless such conversions. They also said they would check with some of their Mopar friends to see if anyone could offer assistance or leads. Nice fellas!!
My next lead took me to a fellow who, like me, is a little long in the tooth but still owns and operates a genuine old time repair shop...complete with Bear alignment equipment from the 1940's and 50s. This gentleman was not the warm and fuzzy type and not interested in any chit-chat or doing any tours. Sensing this....I quickly explained my situation and he quickly indicated he understood my brake problem and even said that he is sure he has one of the Ammco brake gauge sets but hasn't seen it in years.....and was not interested in looking for it since he did not expect to be needing it. While certainly not excited about visiting with me he did finally offer a bit (a very small bit) of sympathy, some brief insights and the name of another possible lead. He was not at all interested in even taking a look at my car. I thanked him for his time and was on my way. A week or so later I was fortunate to find and purchase a used but very nice Ammco 1750 brake gauge set....still in the original box with the original instructions. A few days later I went back to see the last fellow I visited. I proudly showed him my Ammco 1750, to which he said "yeah...that's it....like I said, I got one just like it somewhere". I responded that he did not have to worry about looking for his gauge we could just use mine.......He was not amused. Despite my last ditch, full court press, very best efforts to convince him to just take a look at my '55....he would not budge....not even a little. Disappointed....I gathered up my brake gauge and hit the road.
So....while I still do not have good brakes I do have a brake gauge, I met two really great hot rod builders and found another (in what is getting to be a pretty long line) old timer mechanic who is absolutely not the least bit interested in even looking at my car. I understand how they feel....as I get older I am getting more picky about the jobs I want to take on! All along I have hoped that I could find someone experienced with 40's to 50's Mopar brakes...who would pull off the hubs to find some embarrassingly minor problem....fusses at me for being so incompetent for not finding the problem myself.....and as I profusely agree with them about how stupid I am they fix the problem and I drive away embarassed but with confidence my car will stop. |
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Brakes Shoes for 1955 St. Regis
