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Regular
Posts: 60
Location: Connecticut |
As requested by Neil, I"ve posted photo of my '57 Firesweep IBM card
on this thread as well as in other discussion on IBM cards.
 (57DeSotoIBMcard 001.jpg)
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 57DeSotoIBMcard 001.jpg (81KB - 298 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
  
Location: bishop, ca | OK: a close review of the (very-legible) 1957 Dodge/Firesweep DeSoto Final Line Card shows that a great many of the
"Dodge" options were directly installable on a Firesweep (NOT the least of which was a Dodge-coded engine!).
The DeSoto-unique items and options are listed on the box-columns as shown on the bottom-right of the F.L.C.
Just to make it easy, here; from that 'other' F.L.C., they are :
46_ : "LIGHT-DeSoto ashtray & Dome"
47_ : "LIGHT-DeSoto trunk-courtesy"
48_ : "DeSoto MLDG PKG "
49_ : "DeSoto Wagon EQUIP"
50_ : " DeSoto 'STOWAGE[???]' EQUIP"
Each of these option groups has a 'blank' third digit, so, there ARE more than just one option-item
which is applicable to the particular, individual, 'headings'. That's where the "punches" come in; a car could
have options "460"- "469" , theoretically, and the same, for each of the "47_" - "50_" option
groups, and, there would be a series of one-or-more vertical punch-outs aligning directly above one of those
'option-columns', to document the existence OF whichever option the car might have had, in that
option-heading/name.
I have NO idea what "Stowage Equipment" might refer-to, or, specifically, what any of the various options might represent, in each 'category' of options.
If there were a Broadcast sheet available on this, or on another Firesweep, the various "46-50" option series
(and, the other individual/miscellaneous DeSoto option-series) might well be printed-out on it.
It would appear that none of the DeSoto-specific options were installed on this car, as there are
no punch-outs put into the columns immediately above any of the option groups 46-50, as is also confirmed, higher-up, on the F.L.C.'s ("blank") individual option-item boxes , on this car.
Edited by d500neil 2009-02-26 8:57 PM
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Regular
Posts: 60
Location: Connecticut |
Very fortunately, I was able to locate and extricate the broadcast sheet for my car
taped to the top of the glove box. Also have the original sales order from the dealer
in Utah -- interesting to note the cost of the various options.
 (57DeSotobroadcastsheet2 001.jpg)
 (57DeSotosalesorder 001.jpg)
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57DeSotobroadcastsheet2 001.jpg (55KB - 271 downloads)
57DeSotosalesorder 001.jpg (90KB - 261 downloads)
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Location: The Mile High City | Wow! The Broadcast sheet even says Dodge Division! Neat stuff! |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
In spite of the seller and some parts, a Firesweep is far more Dodge than it is DeSoto. The entire frame, chassis, brakes, drums, and drivetrain is straight Dodge. The body shell (sedans), nose clip, doors (sedan) are all Dodge.
What is DeSoto is a Firedome interior, quarters and decklid, front and rear bumpers and side trim. Beyond that, it was a Dodge !
They were not built by DeSoto, but right alongside regular Dodge production.
I don't think a lot of newer FL fans realize how different the big and small body cars are .... this includes 58 and later Windsor too.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Dayuumn, # "50_" option-series has a blank 'box, on the Broadcast Sheet.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I was pressed for time, last night, and so didn't have much chance to look at the B.Sheet info.
Craig, it does NOT get much better than to have a complete B.S., the Final Line Card copy, AND, the car's purchase
agreement/documentations!
In 1957, carpeting was optional (and very-rarely purchased) on Coronets, Royals, and Firesweeps. Rubber floor mats
were standard.
Your car does have carpeting being OEM installed.
NOW, here's a mystery!
Your car WAS 'special-ordered' at the dealership (dunno when the money was exchanged, though), on 4/27/57, with an 'anticipated' delivery date of 5/31/57--not bad; one month's time).
The Broadcast sheet's "Scheduled" build date was for 5/24/57, and the Final Line [IBM] Card confirms that the car was built on
5/27/57, and, although not ink-stamped, the IBM card confirms that the car WAS shipped on 5/27/57, too.
The 'mystery' part is that neither the B.S. nor the IBM-card confirms that your car WAS Special Ordered, although both
documents confirm that the car received New Car Service (for immediate drivability, at the dealership).
The buyer paid $46.85 for optional "Color Sweep" (in white--the "L" Dodge paint code) , onto the remaining "C" (Dodge's-) Velvet Blue Poly-metallic color.
I'd like to know what that $35.00, for DeSoto's "Deluxe Upholstery" paid for; in other words, what it was, or represented.
BTW, the dashboard should have been painted in a single all-blue color.
MAN; wouldn't we all like to have these documents for our cars!!!!
DOUBLE-OH man-oh-man-oh-MAN----I'm so blind!
One reason your car was shipped on its build date, and that it received New Car Service, is that it
was a CUSTOMER DRIVE-AWAY car, at the factory.
Your B.Sheet is a little faint-to-see, as posted, here.
Edited by d500neil 2009-02-28 2:55 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1488
Location: New Castle PA | Neil, I believe his dash would be padded, not painted. See code 366 CRASH PAD. The C blue code is actually Seatone Blue Metallic, which may be the same color as the Velvet Blue Poly. Often the same color was given a different name by different divisions. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Oh, OK; Ed; I just meant that, as opposed to its having several different colors (like blue and tan, or 2-tone blue)
this car's dash should appear as being painted in only one shade of blue (notwithstanding the Crash Pad).
BTW, on Dodges, anyway, the existence of the padded dash cover ("Crash Pad") IS written onto the bottom area
"Special Instructions" , so that the person who is assembling the dash can merely look at that area, and be told
whether "this" dash should have a power top switch, power tailgate switch, rear defroster switch, a crash pad, a rear
speaker fader switch, and which model the dash should be 'for' (Coro/Roy/CRL--conv or not) , AND, what color(s)
the dash should be painted.
"Crash Pad" should have been written onto this car's Special Instructions, so, I didn't bother to look
for any 'special' fitments of/onto the dash, up in the body of the B.S. .
SO; what DOES :"DeSoto Stowage Equipment" refer-to?
Edited by d500neil 2009-02-28 8:26 PM
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Expert
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Location: Vancouver, BC | Doctor DeSoto - 2009-02-27 10:50 AM
In spite of the seller and some parts, a Firesweep is far more Dodge than it is DeSoto. The entire frame, chassis, brakes, drums, and drivetrain is straight Dodge. The body shell (sedans), nose clip, doors (sedan) are all Dodge.
What is DeSoto is a Firedome interior, quarters and decklid, front and rear bumpers and side trim. Beyond that, it was a Dodge !
They were not built by DeSoto, but right alongside regular Dodge production.
I don't think a lot of newer FL fans realize how different the big and small body cars are .... this includes 58 and later Windsor too.
The DeSoto Firesweep sedan and wagon bodies are the same as the Firedome and Fireflite - except for rear quarter windows on the sedans and the doors on all. As a matter of fact, the Dodge sedan roof panel was shared with Plymouth and not DeSoto while the Firesweep sedan rear door shells are unique and not shared with Dodge or the larger models. Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler 4-door hardtop doors are the same, though.
On the hardtops and convertibles everything from the cowl to the rear bumper is the same for Firesweep, Firedome, Fireflite and Adventurer.
The Plymouth used a 4" shorter body (cowl to rear bumper) than Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler. In truth, few realize the 1957-59 Firesweep and 1958-59 Windsor models shared the bulk of their body parts with the larger models and how few external panels they shared with Dodge.
Many believe the difference between the 122" wheelbase and 126" wheelbase models is in the body. Truth is, the extra 4" in wheelbase between the Fireweep/Windsor and the other DeSoto/Chrysler models is all in the hood. Which is why they used the Dodge front clip in 1957-58.
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Expert
Posts: 1488
Location: New Castle PA | Hmmm. You got me on the STOWAGE EQUIP. I have copies of several broadcast sheets, and for Firesweeps like this one, some (not all) have the "50" column BLANK (not STOWAGE EQUIP). Guess like with all things MOPAR, there are plenty of subtle differences which we're discovering. |
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Expert
Posts: 3889
Location: Northen Virginia | i cant believe this post, txs for share this car history with us, just thinking that in one point in time, all ours cars had the same documentation. Great info!!! |
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Regular
Posts: 60
Location: Connecticut | My Firesweep is Frosty White with Seatone Blue top and sidespear. It was
picked up at the factory by the original owners -- part of the documentation I
have for it includes letters from the State of Utah Tax Collector granting a special
temporary registration to drive it home, and another in July providing the permanent
registration and title.
It is my understanding that the upholstry was an upgrade from standard Firesweep
interior to that used in Firedome series. It is shown in photo below (still original material),
along with the padded dash.
Edited by rdtrpr 2009-03-02 11:24 AM
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01-09 311.JPG (174KB - 261 downloads)
01-09 310.JPG (170KB - 241 downloads)
01-09 301.JPG (162KB - 242 downloads)
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Location: Parts Unknown |
That LR 1/4 body shot shows exactly why I find these cars so $#@! sexy ! That pinched waist and the fins taking off in the straight line to the subtle rolled over cutaway hanging over the tail light pod. darn, that is a good looking car !   |
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Expert
Posts: 1488
Location: New Castle PA | Craig, your Firesweep may have the best example of any pictures in my records of interior code "561". Would you mind sometime taking a few more pictures of the interior for me? Back seat, door panels, whatever. You can post them her if you'd like or email me privately. Thank you! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Well, Desoto's "Seatone blue" is in actuality, DODGE's "Velvet Blue Poly (metallic)" , and whatever their name for it might be,
the "DeSoto" white is Dodge's "Glacier White" , UNLESS the Sotos had their own color-formulations which were different from Dodge's
own color-CODINGS.
4CLC is a pure 57 Dodge paint code.
Yeah, Ed, I too have Broadcast Sheets where "50_" is blank, as are "40_"- "44_" and "49_"- "50_" , but they were early-production
(from 9/56) Sheets.
This car DOES have an all-blue dash, as I interpreted the Broadcast Sheet; as I mentioned, I failed to see the internal-coding for
the Crash Pad, because someone failed to hand-write ('cheat-sheet') the code "CP" onto the bottom of the Broadcast Sheet.
It is fortunate that the dash-assembler read the B.S. and (that someone) confirmed that the dash WAS supposed to be padded .
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Yes, DeSoto's colours were the same as Dodge, almost. The following lists the paint codes with the Dodge name first followed the DeSoto name, with the Ditzler code for each. Also note the LosAngeles plant has two colours different from the Hamtramck plant.
A - Jewel Black (9000); Black (9000)
B - Ice Blue (11531); Lagoon Blue (11531)
C - Velvet Blue Metallic (11529); Seatone Blue Metallic (11529)
D - Misty Green (41560); Mist Green (41560)
E - Forest Green Metallic (41496); Leaf Green Metallic (41496)
F - Moonstone Gray (31410); Dawn Gray (31410)
G - Metallic Charcoal Metallic (31389); Slate Gray Metallic (31389)
H - Flame Red (70691); Fiesta Red (70691)
J - (no Dodge); Muscatel Maroon Metallic (50448)
K - Sunshine Yellow (80850); Sunburst Yellow (80850)
L - Hamtramck - Glacier White (8131); Frosty White (8131)
L - Los Angeles - Cloud White (8036); Cloud White (8036)
M - Turquoise (11532); Light Aqua (11532)
N - Hamtramck - Tropical Coral (70698); Dusty Orange (70698)
N - LosAngeles - Gauguin (70693); Gaugin (70693)
P - Gallant Gold Metallic (21293) (no DeSoto)
S - Heather Green (41961); Samoa Green (41961)
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Regular
Posts: 60
Location: Connecticut |
Ed,
Sure, I can take some more interior photos for you, as soon as
Spring gets here. This morning it was 5 degrees and 15 inches
of snow on the ground from yesterday's storm! Cars are still
hibernating, dusty but not diminished. Sigh...........
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The paint codes confirm that a Firesweep does have the same paint formulas as the Dodges, where they
both happen to share the same color.
Makes perfect sense.
Are those shared-colors the same formula as used in the other big-Sotos???
E.G.: is Dodge's Gallant Gold the same gold formula as used on the Adventurers?
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Comparing the Firesweep colours (left) with Firedome/Fireflite (right) :
A - Black (9000); Black (9000)
B - Lagoon Blue (11531); Capri Blue (11577)
C - Seatone Blue Metallic (11529); Azure Blue Metallic (11522)
D - Mist Green (41560); Seafoam Green (24024)
E - Leaf Green Metallic (41496); Tamarack Green Metallic (41958)
F - Dawn Gray (31410); Dove Gray (31347)
G - Slate Gray Metallic (31389); Charcoal Gray Metallic (31321) (1)
H - Fiesta Red (70691); Fiesta Red (70691)
J - Muscatel Maroon Metallic (50448); Muscatel Maroon (50448) (2)
K - Sunburst Yellow (80850); Sunlit Yellow (80905)
L - Hamtramck - Frosty White (8131); Wyoming Ave - Frost White (8036)
L - Los Angeles - Cloud White (8036); No Firedome/Fireflite production
M - Light Aqua (11532); (no Firedome/Fireflite)
N - Hamtramck - Dusty Orange (70698); (no Firedome/Fireflite)
N - LosAngeles - Gaugin (70693); (no Firedome/Fireflite)
P - Gallant Gold Metallic (3) (21293); Adventurer Gold/Gold Tone Metallic (added Jan/57)(21273)
R - (no Firesweep); Mandarin Rust (60234)
S - Samoa Green (41961); (no Firedome/Fireflite)
V - (no Firesweep); Spanish Gold (added May/57) (21502)
X - (no Firesweep); Sahara Tan (21279)
Z - (no Firesweep); Spice Brown Metallic (21202)
(1) - Replaced by 31590 at FD S/N 55363489 & FF S/N 50417646
(2) - Replaced by 50449 at FD S/N 55369010 & FF S/N 50421930
(3) - Also 1956 Adventurer Gold Metallic
There were two Firesweep/Firedome matches, although one was changed in the Spring. Also, the Firesweep's Gallant Gold Metallic was the same as the 1956 Adventurer Gold Metallic.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Bill, what was the paint code for Dodge's "Glacier White" , as produced in the L.A. plant?
I'll bet that it was 8036, same as for DeSoto's "Cloud White".
Interesting, that DeSoto DID change its color names for the whites, as formulated in Hamtramck (Frosty white: 8131, which
was the SAME formula as for Dodge's "Glacier White") , and DeSoto's "Cloud White" (8036) which was applied in L.A..
I am not aware of any name change, for Dodge's L.A. plant's white color ("Glacier White"), but, there may have been a different
paint formulation, for it.
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Location: Vancouver, BC | d500neil - 2009-03-04 5:00 PM
Bill, what was the paint code for Dodge's "Glacier White" , as produced in the L.A. plant?
I'll bet that it was 8036, same as for DeSoto's "Cloud White".
Interesting, that DeSoto DID change its color names for the whites, as formulated in Hamtramck (Frosty white: 8131, which
was the SAME formula as for Dodge's "Glacier White") , and DeSoto's "Cloud White" (8036) which was applied in L.A..
I am not aware of any name change, for Dodge's L.A. plant's white color ("Glacier White"), but, there may have been a different
paint formulation, for it.
Neil,
Although Dodge and DeSoto Firesweep had different names for the white for Hamtramck-built cars, the paint itself was the same - Dodge : "Glacier White" (8131); DeSoto : "Frosty White" (8131)
For LosAngeles, the white was the same for both makes - name and code - Dodge : "Cloud White" (8036); DeSoto : "Cloud White" (8036)
DeSoto's Wyoming Avenue plant (Firedome, Fireflite) used the same white as the Los Angeles plant but called it "Frost White". That same white (8036) was also used by Chrysler & Imperial, code X, "Cloud White" .
Plymouth's white in 1957 was code "A", "Sand Dune White", 80624 - as far as mixing goes, an extremely pale yellow as opposed to a white. The 80000 codes were yellow-based colours while 8000 codes were whites, in the U.S. In Canada the 8000 numbers were used for unique Canadian yellow colours while W8000 numbers were for whites. By the way, true white colours did not begin appearing on North American production cars until 1953-54.
The "Icecap White" offered by Chrysler of Canada in 1957 (code 11 - CPI# W8134) was the first true white offered on a Canadian-built Chrysler car. In 1955 and 1956, they offered a near-white, "Surf White" (1956 code 11) / "Miami Ivory" (1955 code 6014), both CPI# 80697.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Right, but, was the actual color-shading different, from L.A. to Detroit, or, was there just a different formulation, to produce
(virtually) the same color?
Maybe I should try to find a color-chip-chart for "Cloud White" (and, maybe I've already got one; I have 4 or so chip-charts
for different paint companies).
I'm guessing that Glacier White was (virtually) the same color as cloud White.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1172
Location: bradenton florida | Wow that is a very nice orgional interior. my 58 sweep also has the upgraded interior door panels |
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Location: Parts Unknown | When buying zillions of gallons of paint from Ditzler or PPG or ... , it makes no business sense that they would buy any extra formulas for a given type of color than necessary. Each would require such a huge amount of work to set the spray equipment up for (and clean out the previous color). To make a changeover for an indiscernable shade difference "just cuz" makes no sense at all. It would seem Mopar would make any given color the same across the board (as much as possible) to reduce production costs, even if they did waste a lot of effort and paper calling each division's version a different name.
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Regular
Posts: 89
| Just jumping in on this old post. I've been researching the correct colors for my 1957 Adventurer initially because I was confused by a Chrysler Historical document for my car stating it was painted Frost white and Adventurer Gold whereas various internet sites and advertisements for Adventurers for sale always seemed to mention "Surf White".
I did some research with www.paintref.com which indicated the following: Surf White as a 1955 color only so seemingly not correct for a '57 Adventurer? Frosty White - Ditzler code 8131 was used for Firesweep S-27 but this code 8131 also corresponds to numerous other names such as : Glacier, Ermine, Pearl, Eggshell, Alaska, Iceberg, Ivory and Pearl for different Chrysler Divisions.
There was also a very similar white offered by Desoto in 1957 just called "White" Ditzler code 8036. This also cross references as Cloud white having the same 8036 code. I wrote several times to Chrysler Historical who were very helpful. They confirmed that there was indeed a mistake on my documents and that Frosty White was incorrect. It should have just read "White" - code 8036 (also known as Cloud white). I now have a Ditzler Paint Chip card clearly showing both "Frosty White 8131" (S-27 only) and separately "White 8036" for Firedome S-25 and Fireflite S-26. Although these whites are very close, in certain light you can see that the "White" 8036 is a brighter, cleaner white than the Frosty White 8131. I have assumed that as the Adventurer was a sub series of the Fireflite that this is the correct "white 8036 " and that Chrysler Historical are correct.
I thought, great, now I know I should paint my car "White - 8036". Then I started looking more closely at the Adventurer Gold! The same Ditzler card for 1957 colors lists "Adventurer Gold" 21293 but if you look closely it says next to it "1956 (two tones only)" I knew that the '56 Gold was different from the '57 Adventurer Gold but why was the 1956 color appearing on the 1957 card?
The very helpful post from Chrycoman above shed's light in that the later gold was added in Jan '57 and has a different Ditzler code of 21273. I now also have an original Ditzler "New Color Information Advance Bulletin" document dated 1-22-57 which says "New Color. Paint code PPP Adventurer Gold Poly (formerly known as Gold Tone Poly) 21273 Note: This color (21273) is new and should not be mistaken with the color chip shown on the 1957 Desoto color card which is a late 1956 color also called Adventurer Gold Poly, 21293."
So, this absolutely ties in with the Chrycoman post in that it was changed in (late) January 1957. However, so far I have not been able to find a color chip card of this new Adventurer Gold anywhere - has anyone seen one anywhere? It is apparently not in the master books. My final question is were any early 1957 Adventurers painted in the late 1956 gold before the change in January 1957? Also if this "Advance Bulletin" was dated 1-22-57 when would the actual color change have been carried out - immediately or a little later on the production line? My car was built on Feb 8th 57 so it's close to the changeover date. Or, were ALL '57 Adventurers painted in the "new" 21273 gold? Does anyone know the answer to this? Did I hear once that in the fifties the new model year autos came out in the Autumn of the preceding year - so late 1956 year but a 1957 model auto?
If anyone wants to see the color card and advance bulleting documents just let me know and I'll scan them and add them to this post.
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DeSoto Firesweep IBM card
