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Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | Hello group,
I know there are some Torqueflite-specialist here on this forum, so I’m quite sure you can help me. Here is what happened to my perfect working, smooth shifting A-466:
A while ago the transmission started to emit a “whining” noise, not always but sometimes. The best way to describe this “whining” is if you imagine a big electric motor like the ones golf cars have. That noise is/was present while engine is running (also when car is not moving) and changes its frequency in driving mode as rpm go up or down – meaning it’s clearly rpm related. I suspect the front pump. Last week I had some other work to do under the car and set it up on four blocks. Suddenly, when starting the engine the whining noise is gone and an irregular rattling noise came from the front of the transmission instead. I’ve already removed the dust cover. The ring gear and starter pinion are clear, but I noticed that the ATF-level on the dip stick is not at the max-mark anymore, but about 3 inch higher. I’ll take the transmission out as soon as I can.
What’s your diagnosis? (front pump – TQ – what else could it possibly be???)
Thanks a lot!
Stefan
Edited by sportfury1959 2013-10-12 2:09 PM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | Either, I think
Neither one is fun
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Expert
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Location: Michigan | While we are on this subject, what are the different ways to take this trans out? Taking the front clip off and pulling engine and trans is the most work. I imagine a tiny person with great strength could reach those top trans to engine bolts and drop it that way. Any other crafty ways us normal people can use without killing ourselves in the process? |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | Cant you get to the trans to bell bolts?
If mine is comming back out (its not tested yet), I was going to take the trans off the bell
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Location: Michigan | Not sure. what do those bolts go into? My bell is not threaded. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | The 2 silver ones (theres 4) are threaded into the bell
By undoing them, the trans will slide out, leaving the tc still bolted to the crank
Just have to be carefull with the pump drive thing as it could fall out, stay with the trans of stay in the tc
Remember also, its darn heavy
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 915
Location: Pau, S-W France | Gi,
I had also a whining noise on a Tqf i renewed but it was an error when i installed the levers of the front clutch, see at the bottom of http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=36795&...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWcvxxtJtk
About removing (and installing) the trans we used this method rather removing all the assy with converter. Best is to install two studs or threaded rods on converter instead of the two upper bolts, so you can pull or push horizontally. Very important when installing,you must align the converter notchs with the two tabs of the front pump drive sleeve
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2013-10-13 4:19 AM
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Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | ttotired
I’m afraid you might be right!
Beltran
If you have a lift, the most simple way is to work from underneath. Of course you should never do it alone because it’s quite heavy.
If you don’t have a lift you can separate engine and transmission on the bell housing. Then pull engine, then transmission. You only have to remove the radiator, hood and e-brake to have more clearance. If you want to remove engine and transmission together I believe it would be sufficient to remove also the cross member of the trany and the steering bar just to level the assembly while you pull it out. You don’t have to take the front clip off.
Phil,
The whining in my transmission was quite similar to yours, except it was not as loud as in your movie and it didn’t stop when putting in gear. It was also present when driving – not always, but most of the times. Also my trans has never been opened, except two times to change the o-ring on the front pump. As the new o-ring didn’t seal I had to pull it again and put the old one in again together with a new shaft seal and it was good.
Yesterday I noticed something else. I started the engine and put it in gear. Then I grabbed the rear tire and stopped it with my bare hands – while idling, of course. Then my son reved it up to about 1.500 rpm and I still could hold the rear tire with no resistance. (I have a sure grip in it). Well, to me it is front pump or/and Torque Converter. My questions are now:
1. A defect front pump is probably easy to detect, but how do I find out if the TQ is ok or not?
2. As the ATF-level is suddenly about 3 inch higher (on the dip stick) than before - is it possible, that the TQ doesn’t hold the fluid because a seal is broke?
Let me know what you think please. I’ll keep you posted and put some pics of the repair.
Thanks.
Stefan
Edited by sportfury1959 2013-10-13 11:17 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3400
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Do you have experience doing one of these units, if not I suggest you get some help. I would seek out a lift to work on this, on the ground is very difficult!! You should follow the shop manual procedure a test the pump pressures first for a proper diagnosis. If the pump is bad it will not fill convertor so it would be a no go. Pump failures in themselves are are in these transmissions. Stuck pressure and convertor control valves maybe, again follow the shop manual procedure for these checks. |
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Location: Pau, S-W France | sportfury1959 - 2013-10-13 2:07 PM
1. A defect front pump is probably easy to detect, but how do I find out if the TQ is ok or not?
I had a car with a problem on the front pump: not enough pressure. I didn't remember a whining noise but with a too low presssure delivered the car didn't go in R except if we ran the engine at more thyan 1500 rpm. A defective front pump will be noted first in R becaure R pressure is three time greater than in forward range.
About TQ the only mean to know is maybe to replace it.
sportfury1959 - 2013-10-13 2:07 PM
2. As the ATF-level is suddenly about 3 inch higher (on the dip stick) than before - is it possible, that the TQ doesn’t hold the fluid because a seal is broke?
Let me know what you think please. I’ll keep you posted and put some pics of the repair.
When car idling, after a run ?
Or when car has ben stoped some days ? On my car after 5 days w/o starting the level before starting is 10 cm above "Full" mark ! It's the drainback converter, the oil of theconverter returns gradually to oil pan
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Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | Hi Dave,
As I live in Portugal I don´t really have another option then to do it myself. There is nobody (whom I trust) even close to me who is able to do such kind of work. I know basically how the TF works, but I have never opened one except the front pump.
Phil,
Thanks for the information. Strange to me is that it happened from one moment to the other - meaning the trany worked not only fine, but perfect, except that whining. There was definitely no significant pressure loss during a short time. However I know all this is guesswork. I will take it out the next couple of days and let you guys know what’s going on.
Stefan
Edited by sportfury1959 2013-10-14 6:37 AM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Stefan, ask questions here if your unsure before you're doing the work - we'll try to support you and help you.
Here's the 58 TF manual http://jholst.net/58-service-manual/transmission.pdf
Here's the 59 TF manual http://jholst.net/59-service-manual/transmission.pdf
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Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | Thanks Sven for the motivation! 
I do have the manuals but I sure need some advice later. I've already studied the drawings and I bet a beer that it's the drive sleeve of the front pump.
I hope to find some friends next saturday to help remove the trany - we'll see then.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Stefan, if you need specific trannie repair-parts, Northwest Transmission Parts is about as good as it gets:
http://www.nwtparts.com/
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Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | Hi guys,
I’ve removed the trany this afternoon and it confirmend what I suspected, only worse.
It seems it's not only the drive shaft of the front pump, but some other parts too. Let me know what you think. Here are the pictures:
Edited by sportfury1959 2013-10-26 11:38 AM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Pau, S-W France | Seems that the front pump drive sleeve has the two lugs destroyed but if you cannot remove the sleeve from the pump (you shows the sleeve with the pump rotor assy.) the front pump seems also shot ! Maybe the fromt pump has seized, it's vital to check if the pump can be turn by the sleeve after overhauling the transmission. Sometimes pump bolts are not well tighten and the pump can't rotate.
If you need the reaction shaft (third pic) i've one (aluminium model). |
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Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | Phil,
You’re right. The outer ring of the front pump is seized in the pump housing. I can’t even remove the ring from the housing – it’s totally tight. That caused the damage and was the origin of the whining transmission. I was hoping it would be enough to change the front pump and the drive sleeve, but as the reaction shaft is scuffed I’ll have to take the whole transmission apart – correct? Also the front pump housing and the torque converter are affected. I’ll make a list of all the destroyed and affected parts and let you know then. Thanks a lot!!!
Stefan
Edited by sportfury1959 2013-10-27 1:49 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Pau, S-W France | sportfury1959 - 2013-10-27 7:46 PM
but as the reaction shaft is scuffed I’ll have to take the whole transmission apart – correct?
Yes, because it's the last part you remove when you take the transmission apart !!! We never removed it as there's no reason to do that !
Note that you can access to it if you slide the three units an an assy. by the rear and leaving the bands (loose) in the trans. But it'll be safe to take aparts the units (+ valve body + accumulator + servos + ...) because ther'll be some metal remains coming from pump in the trans.
Pic of the one i have (don't bother about text). Come from an early torquflite (aluminium shaft)
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2013-10-27 4:24 PM
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Location: Fafe, Portugal | Phil,
Today I’ve removed the pump from the pump housing. I had to carefully drill until the ring broke. The seizing marks are clearly visible on the pump ring as well as on the pump housing. This happened due to insufficient lubrication. The last picture (P10) shows why. The bearing on the front pump drive sleeve doesn’t belong there. It blocked the oil channel in the pump housing and prevented sufficient lubrication of the front pump. Am I right in this assumption?
How did this bearing come on the sleeve? A couple of years ago a friend and I opened the front pump to replace the leaking front seal. I vaguely remember that we attached the bearing because we thought that ……. whatever. Well, we obviously didn’t know what we were doing. I’m definitely not proud about it, but maybe it serves as a lesson for somebody else. The Torqueflite would still work properly if I hadn’t done this fine “improvement”
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Location: Michigan | Ouch. well now the fun part. Finding an new pump, and pump housing. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | sportfury1959 - 2013-10-13 10:07 PM
Phil,
The whining in my transmission was quite similar to yours, except it was not as loud as in your movie and it didn’t stop when putting in gear. It was also present when driving – not always, but most of the times. Also my trans has never been opened, except two times to change the o-ring on the front pump. As the new o-ring didn’t seal I had to pull it again and put the old one in again together with a new shaft seal and it was good.
Stefan
.........
Stefan,
My 59 Dodge with Powerflite makes the exact same whine noise ( in idle only ) , and after listening to Phils you tube video it's the same kind of noise as in Phils clip but a little bit quieter and most likely same as your whine by your description .
No whine in any gears in my PF and the car drives fine on the road with the 800 odd miles I've driven it already since buying it ( it's a running/rebuilder at this point in time ).
My PF runs and shifts absolutely fine otherwise with the exception being of a little bit of "creep " on engine start up which at this point in time I'm assuming is a cable adjust problem and/or pushbutton control unit problem.
The whine in mine ( when I first heard the car start up upon delivery here about 18 mths ago ) sounded to me at the time to be also a front pump wear noise. I do have a Nos powerflite front pump here if I need it.I believe the PF and TF front pumps are different ??? ( someone may be able to confirm ? )
Your postmortem pics of your front pump and other parts certainly seem to indicate I might be looking at the same/similar repair in the future.
Keep us up to date Stefan on your diagnosis and repair progress as it should help not only myself but others here as well to diagnose and repair these trans with same/similar symptoms.
We are all here to learn and also help each other keep our Mopes on the road, just like one big happy ( most times LOL ) international forward look family !!
..............
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Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | Terry,
I’m working on my Plymouth for more than two decades now and the only two things that I didn’t open yet are the transmission and the radio. I’ve restored several SB+BB engines and a lot of Power Steering Boxes. I’m not a specialist on Transmissions (YET ;)), but there’s one thing I’ve learned during the years: The material is always right – meaning if your transmission is whining then you maybe shouldn’t drive anymore. Although you have a second front pump, it’s likely that you destroy also other parts that you might not have – e.g. the Torque Convertor. Look at me - I still had to learn it the hard way. What a pity that you live practically on the other side of this planet, otherwise I would come by next weekend to investigate it. The closest person I know is Phil, about 420 mls away.
Stefan
Edited by sportfury1959 2013-10-29 7:40 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 915
Location: Pau, S-W France | Yes i'm the nearest .... Best is to find a complete transmission rather than buy very expensive parts. Problem is cost of shipping . http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-1958-Plymouth-Torqueflite-A904-3-spd-a... but price is rather high, i saw Torqueflite in the 150 - 250 $ range.
The drive sleeve cost 1/3 of the assy. at Mitchell' store http://www.ebay.com/itm/57-58-59-60-61-300-Fury-Firedome-Coronet-La...
Some years ago i tried to find a front pump and asked Fatsco or Northewest Transmission w/o result. Maybe this guy http://www.ebay.com/usr/automobilia_jax has one, i see that he has rare NOS Torqueflite parts.
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Try to contact Lasse "Texas" Hanbring at NBV in Sweden - I remember that he talked about repopping the front pump, but I don't know if he did.....
Telefon: +46 8-56472010
Telefax: + 46 8-7608977
E-post: info@norrortsbilovan.se |
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Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | Thanks Phil and Sven, I’m currently working on the “needed-parts-list”, but today I have some good news and a question:
The good news is that I won’t need a TQ. After removing the debris with a magnet I saw that the taps are in good condition and the TQ can be reused again. Only the taps on the drive sleeve have been shaved off.
The question I have is about the reaction shaft. Although my reaction shaft is scuffed on two places I think/believe it doesn’t affect the function.
Investigating and measuring the parts – here’s what I think: The front pump drive sleeve is supported (centred) by the TQ, the front pump housing and the pump itself, but although the front pump drive sleeve slips over the reaction shaft, it seems that the reaction shaft doesn’t function as a bearing for the drive sleeve. There is simply too much clearance between the two parts. At this moment I haven’t figured out what the embossed surface (green arrow) is good for, but it most likely does NOT function as a bearing for the drive sleeve. Can someone of you specialists please confirm (or refute) this opinion?
Stefan
PS: I’m not looking forward to save some $, but to avoid opening the transmission if not necessary.
Edited by sportfury1959 2013-10-30 7:12 AM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | RED ALERT! A transmission with that kind of damage must be totally demounted, thoroughly cleaned and inspected according to the shop manual instructions.
Your transmission is full of metal residue in all its's circuits, passages, valves, servos, valve body assembly, yes, practically everywhere the oil flows.
If you don't perform this operation, immediate (or next to) trasnmission failure will be the result, with far mor parts damaged or destroyed - there just ARN'T ANY SHORTCUTS |
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Expert
Posts: 3889
Location: Northen Virginia | wow I found the same problem on my 61 TF, don't worry about the reaction shaft, if I remember correctly the Drive sleeve basically wont touch it, is hold in place by the TC and the bearing in the housing.
Is almost incredible that nobody is repoping the front pump, is actually the part with most stress in the whole trans. |
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Posts: 3889
Location: Northen Virginia | Forgot to tell you, Wiz is right get all the trans apart to clean it, you are going to need some special tools and such, but you have to get all the dirt and metal shavings out of it. |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Pau, S-W France | wizard - 2013-10-30 1:51 PM
RED ALERT! A transmission with that kind of damage must be totally demounted, thoroughly cleaned and inspected according to the shop manual instructions.
Your transmission is full of metal residue in all its's circuits, passages, valves, servos, valve body assembly, yes, practically everywhere the oil flows.
If you don't perform this operation, immediate (or next to) trasnmission failure will be the result, with far mor parts damaged or destroyed - there just ARN'T ANY SHORTCUTS
totally agree ! |
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Location: Pau, S-W France | hemidenis - 2013-10-30 6:12 PM
wow I found the same problem on my 61 TF, don't worry about the reaction shaft, if I remember correctly the Drive sleeve basically wont touch it, is hold in place by the TC and the bearing in the housing.
Is almost incredible that nobody is repoping the front pump, is actually the part with most stress in the whole trans.
I've made some pics this morning and hemidenis is right, the drive sleeve doesn't touch the reaction shaft, ther's a small clearance (0,2 to 0,5 mm = 0.001 to 0.002 ") between , see pics. I noticed also that you must align the lower hole of the reaction shaft with the slot in the housing. I thought that the bolt pattern was uneven but no !!! You can install the reaction shaft in 3 position but only one has the 2 holes face up.
I think also that the sleeve sometimes rubs on the reaction shaft so maybe it's why they change from aluminium to steel. (1957 transmission with letter K and after except 1671 747 which is letter L, all other years have steel shaft)
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Regular
Posts: 68
Location: Fafe, Portugal | See Phil, that’s exactly why I’m trying to avoid opening the transmission like the devil avoids the holy water. These small, but incredibly important details can cause a lot of trouble, but I know you ALL are right about Sven’s “Red Alert”. I’ll continue to investigate and then start to take it apart.
For now I want to thank you ALL for your support and I’ll keep you posted as soon as I’ve decided how to proceed.
Stefan
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Location: Northen Virginia | Phil, that's a good point, I think the trans will not work at all if the reaction shaft is not correctly installed? |
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Posts: 3400
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Correct, the convertor will not fill. |
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Location: Muskego, WI | I hope I've put mine together correctly, I can't remember.  |
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Location: Ripon, WI | If you don't take that trans all apart, you are asking for more trouble. That front plate that the front pump rides against is trashed. Those are soft aluminum as well, and they are hard to find. |
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Torqueflite Transmission Help needed !!!
