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littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | While spending a few weeks making a new exhaust for my wagon I noticed there would be a couple of drips of transmission fluid every day under the car. Checked the usual suspects like the selector cable and throttle shaft seal and they looked okay. Anyway I finished the exhaust and took the car out for a spin to check out the sound as you do. When I returned home with the engine and trans up to temperature I checked the fluid level and found it was a bit lower than I expected. On walking round the back of the car I found a trail of fluid and on looking underneath the pan was dripping wet and also wet on the torque converter cover. So car back up on stands, torque converter cover removed and it seems a seal has gone between the torque coverter or transmission. I've never had a transmission out before. I have a shop manual which I will brush up on but is there any thing else I should be looking out for to check, replace etc? It's a cast iron torqueflight in my 60 dodge pioneer. Cheers Carl | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13055 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Be sure to used studs for easy straight demounting of the gearbox from the converter cover, as described in the shop manual. Check the state of the front pump drive sleeve. With the transmission in normal position, with the oil pan downwards (also easy done while the trans is still in the car), demount the oil pan and check what you find on the botton - if it's much metallic residue, then you might want to consider a full rebuild of the trans. With the trans out of the car, it will also be very easy to adjust the bands. | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3402 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Drive sleeve and o ring and the front pump seals are the most common leaks fron the ft of the trans, As mentioned as tough as it is to R and I these units, you may consider rebuilding it now. Edited by Shep 2013-09-25 7:21 PM | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8445 Location: Perth Australia | Carl, these trannys are exceptionally heavy Keep it in mind when you start undoing the bolts | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3402 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | 185#!!! | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13055 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I found out the weight "the hard way" - nearly chrushed me the first time I pulled a cast iron hog | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | Thanks for the replies guys. Yes the weight does frighten me a bit. I only have one trolley jack and I've used all my jack stands to hold the car up. For what I've already guessed is that the motor will need support at the rear also. I may need to fab up a cradle for the jack to support the trans when raising and lowering so it doesn't fall off. | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13055 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | You could support the engine from above with a 2 by 4 wooden beam placed on a safe location on the catwalk (inside of the fenders), or make a sturdy support and support the engine under the oil pan. A flat steel plate with a welded stud that fits in your trolley jack will be the best - you could tie the trans with a piece of rope. Good luck now!! | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | Shep - 2013-09-25 12:20 AM 185#!!! Is that 185 pounds you say? I only weigh 150! I'll be sqished like an ant! | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13055 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | The first I pulled ended up on my chest, drove all the air out of me and pinned me to the ground. I thought it looked somewhat heavy, but never had a clue how heavy it was I have not weighed one, but if you should lift the transmission up on a workbench, you need one assistant to aid you for a safe lift. With your trolley jack and the flat steel plate and using the guide studs, it should be an easy task. | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3402 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Fortunately I powerlift in competition, so this was a doable one man job for me. LOL | ||
PlymouthFury |
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Expert Posts: 1324 Location: Hickory, NC | Yea and don't forget about that hidden bolt! Atleast if its a Poly motor. (Not sure if bigblocks are the same?) There's a bolt that is up inside the bellhousing that will make you cuss and throw things and make you have a generally bad day! I ended up pulling the motor and tranny as a unit out of my '59 Plymouth as it was much easier that way! And man that transmission was pretty heavy! | ||
db300 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 314 | Is that 185 with the bell housing and converter? Getting ready to pull mine | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8445 Location: Perth Australia | The converter is not that heavy (relatively speaking) The addition or subtraction of the converter wont really make that much of a difference if your thinking of wether you can man handle it or not. The thing is just plain heavy, I had the trans and engine out at the same time and used the engine crane to take the trans off the engine, and put it back. I recon the cars would be 2 seconds faster down the 1/4 mile if the trans weighed 1/2 as much I am trying to think why you cant leave the bell and converter on the engine and just remove the trans? Just cant think why you cant, its still heavy, but at least it reduces the weight and bulk a bit | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3402 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | You can ubolt the trans from bell and slide back, do it all the time. | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7432 Location: northern germany | ttotired - 2014-01-09 6:47 PM I recon the cars would be 2 seconds faster down the 1/4 mile if the trans weighed 1/2 as much but its in about the perfect location for the center of gravity. maybe a bit too far forward but i'm sure it helps improving weight distribution. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8445 Location: Perth Australia | Thanks Shep I had a mental block this morning so I didnt want to say that you definately could That would make that mongrel bolt (if its a poly) easier to get at as well because with the trans out of the way, the TC can be unbolted and dropped out, then theres all the room in the world to get at that bolt (trusting my memory a bit more now) Edited by ttotired 2014-01-10 8:07 AM | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13055 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | 1960fury - 2014-01-10 3:11 AM ttotired - 2014-01-09 6:47 PM I recon the cars would be 2 seconds faster down the 1/4 mile if the trans weighed 1/2 as much but its in about the perfect location for the center of gravity. maybe a bit too far forward but i'm sure it helps improving weight distribution. Funny that you mention this just as I have my old Chrysler book open Sid Actually, you're next to spot on with the center of gravity - see the pictures below, kind of speaks for themselves.... (A600 midship transmission.jpg) (Resize of Central mounted differential.jpg) Attachments ---------------- A600 midship transmission.jpg (155KB - 82 downloads) Resize of Central mounted differential.jpg (138KB - 86 downloads) | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | I finally got the trans out (the kitchen is almost done at home lol). There was no hidden bolt fitted only the top 5 bolts that hold the bell to the block. The bottom ones the holes don't line up (later block correct year 1960 trans). I've yet to confirm what crank is fitted as to why it worked.. Took the whole lot (trans, bell and TC) out together and my god that's heavy.. Yep front seal to the torque converter was the culprit. But on draining the fluid that I only put in clean 18 months before it came out black with lumps of grey deposits like I had before that crumble between your fingers. I guess it's rebuild time so I'm looking for a kit or parts. Rock Auto seem to be listing the wrong trans for a 1960 dodge rebuild kit so I've been looking at Fatsco and getting their master kit and possibly bands as well but shipping to the UK + core charges are going to be the killer. I've seen also on other threads that having the bands re lined isn't that good so to avoid if possible.. Whats the verdict? | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7432 Location: northern germany | wizard - 2014-01-10 8:15 AM Funny that you mention this just as I have my old Chrysler book open Sid Actually, you're next to spot on with the center of gravity - see the pictures below, kind of speaks for themselves.... oh wow, i never saw these pictures before! i heard 57s were actually supposed to be irs cars but never had the proof or pictures. thanks! Edited by 1960fury 2014-03-26 7:54 PM | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8445 Location: Perth Australia | I got my bands religned, no problems yet, but my cars still only yard driven The master fatsco kit that I got had a lot of stuff that didnt have a home and was missing some other stuff. The main thing was the clutch packs didnt have enough plates to make up the correct thickness, I had to use some from a second kit that I wanted for when I do the plymouth. When I first put it together, the whole lot turned (locked up) because the clutches were to thick I was told $800 to rebuild the trans, should have paid it. Wont stop me though | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK |
Bottom of the pan.. Just a slight tinge of red.
It's out
The leaky seal.
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littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | ttotired - 2014-03-26 12:53 AM I got my bands religned, no problems yet, but my cars still only yard driven The master fatsco kit that I got had a lot of stuff that didnt have a home and was missing some other stuff. The main thing was the clutch packs didnt have enough plates to make up the correct thickness, I had to use some from a second kit that I wanted for when I do the plymouth. When I first put it together, the whole lot turned (locked up) because the clutches were to thick I was told $800 to rebuild the trans, should have paid it. Wont stop me though So did having thicker clutches mean less plates to put in.. I don't know what to do now.. I was nearly poised for buying their set.. I have a guy here that has offered to rebuild the trans. He's a mopar guy and races (although post forward look stuff). He may change his mind when he see this great lump lol.
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ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8445 Location: Perth Australia | Get the kit, I am not a tranmission expert by a long shot and I am will ing to admit that I had trouble understanding a lot of what the workshop manual was trying to get at. Doing the thing with all the springs in it (the front cluch housing) took me a day to work out what I needed to do it, then work out how I was going to do it without the special tool thats needed (but likely to never be needed again). If your getting someone to do it for you, they may have extra plates to help with setting them up right. Mine still has the correct number of plates, I cant remember if I tried to set it up with 1 less pair? | ||
VAN HELSING |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 982 Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ........ I bought some fibre clutch plates for a TF on evilbay a while back, I couldn't find the part numbers in my parts book, ended up finding the info from another member here that they were plates that were of different thickness . There's usually trans clutch plates for sale on evilbay. ........ | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | I'm just about to order the kit. From what the guys at fatsco have said there is a difference on the front band from 1961. Being as there are various bits of running gear on my car from differnt years I just want to make sure I order the correct band. What is the best way to tell what year my trans is? I have some cast numbers 1854220-4 6. 26 5S A2 and an 8 dot dial with the pointer at the first dot I've not cleaned the case to see if there are any other stamped numbers etc. | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3402 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | I would get it apart and look at what you really need, normally the bands may not need to be replaced, check the front clutch drum/retainer for weakness where the snap ring fits, my 59 broke apart right there. The kits I got from Fatsco worked fine but the steel rings are not marked so you have to match each one, easy to make a mistake as some are close in size. These old flites are tough to reassemble properly, be warned. | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | I figured if I'm going to all the trouble of getting it rebuilt I may as well get the bands done at the same time. What makes the bands different from earlier to the late units? | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3402 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Band is the same size may be the material. | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | Edited by littlecarl 2014-04-01 5:31 AM | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | Good news, the bands are ok. Horay! Bad news, pump housing bush has spun in the housing and the drive sleeve is worn. Booo! | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3402 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Tough parts to source, yikes!! You will need a new pump housing most likely and of course sleeve, sounds like something seized in there or lack of lube. | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | Yeah the guy tasked with fixing it said the same thing. Said that the bush could have been too tight to the sleeve from an earlier rebuild. I hadn't bargained bargained on that one. | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | I thought I might have been in luck. Remembered someone that said they had some torqueflite spares.. No sleeve but had a pump housing and pump gears.. Housing looked ok till I got it home and cleaned some of the grime off. The phosphor bush was intact and looked serviceable but the surface where the pump drive sleeve run had left a couple of grooves although not that deep. The faces that the pump gears run didn't look too clever either so it looks like a wasted journey.. But... As my trans is with a guy 60+ miles away it was not easy for me to see it how it went together. Now I got this other one that I can't do anything with but made me think if it were possible to bore out the housing and make a repair sleeve to take the phosphor bush and provide a good clean surface for the pump drive sleeve seals to run on? Now I'm not a transmission expert by any means and removing this trans from my car other than changing fluid is the extent of my experience. However I do have some experience of machines like lathes, mills etc. albeit a long time ago.. Is this something that could be done or have I gone completely mad? | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | Sleeve bought, $20. Original housing to be re sleeved/bushed at an engineer shop for £100 (about $160 US). Master Kit ordered from fatsco... Now the wait.. | ||
littlecarl |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 337 Location: UK | While my trans is off to the menders I thought about finding a way to secure the bell housing to the cast iron torqueflite a little better. As I have a later engine block from 1965 fitted with early 8 bolt flange crank only the top 5 bell to block bolts line up. The bottom bolt holes on either the bell housing or block don't line up at all.. I thought about drilling the bell housing to make new holes for the lower block ones and tap them to accept bolts but the wall thickness is uneven and thin not only that it falls right on the join to the edge of the bell where goes towards the trans.. I guess I'm trying to do the reverse of what Chuck (60 Dart) is doing where he's made a later bell fit an earlier block..
Here's the bellhousing (to block side)
With a sheet of paper and some grubby fingers I made some excuse of a template
What I might do is fit the bell housing to the block again and drill a small hole in the through the center of the block holes to see how close I am exactly to the wall of the bell. Fit the Torgue Converter also to see if I have room to maybe get a strengthening plate inside the bell.. Edited by littlecarl 2014-05-01 7:52 PM | ||
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