|
|
Veteran
Posts: 127
 
Location: north of tampa florida | can anyone tell me the best easiest and cheapest swap out for my 57 belve's rear end? wanna keep it around 373..... is the any certain model that will bolt right in? |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: BELTSVILLE, MARYLAND 20705 | HOW ARE YOU
IVE HAD REAL GOOD LUCK BOLTING IN THE 70--74 CUDA AND CHALLENGER REARS IN THE 60--64 C BODYS. THEY DROP IN RIGHT ON THE SPRINGS. IM NOT SURE IF THEY WILL FIT THE EARLIER CARS BUT ILL BET THEY WILL. MY FRIEND LOU PUT ONE IN HIS 59 DODGE AND IT BOLTED RIGHT IN. THIS WILL GIVE YOU A NON TAPPERED REAR THAT YOU CAN BUY ANY CENTER SECTION FOR. SMITTY |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 101
Location: Northern KY | Not to sound like a moron - But I just want to make sure I am hearing you correctly. Are you saying that E body rear axles are slightly wider than whats already on the stock 57 / 58 plymouth ? I am contemplating switching out rearends as well. What rear axle would work best for allowing a little more tire under the rear end ? Esp. if you plan on hopping up the engine and need a little more traction ? Thanks. |
|
| |
|
Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
 
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | OK. Heeeeerrrrr we go again.
I measured three tapered axle rears. '58 Ply, DeS, and a NYer.
Measuring from the brake drum face to brake drum face, was 60 3/4" to 60 7/8"
For me to scrub the white walls on my Belvy, (signature) I have to bumper jack the rear up , so I can get my hand and a scrub brush between the tire and the wheel lip.
The closest 'pumpkin' or chunk type, leaf spring of rear, to the OM FwdLk measurments, is a '64 to '73 or 4, 9" Big F0rd Galaxiy car, at 61"
To use a 9" F0rd, to get ratios in the mid threes, (3.55 etc) you will have to find the chunk section out of pick up. Cars don't have those gears.
C body 8 3/4 rears, '69 '72 Fury, Monaco, NYer are 63"
E body 8 3/4 or Dana 60 rears, '70 to '74 Chally, Cuda, are around 61 1/2"
I do NOT see how anyone can scrub the tires at a stock or lowered ride height, with the wider width rears?
A, C or E body rear, the tires would rub the fender lips on hard cornering?
That leaves the B body 8 3/4 or Dana 60, '65 to '70, Road runner, Super B/Bird GTX, etc. at 60" to 60 1/2"
There are some who say that they have pushed or pulled, however so slight, the rear FwdLk springs into the center hole pads, have just f^%$#d up the suspension geomerty.
Not only that. The pinion angle is differnt between each model of vehicle.
If you want a dead on exact measurment for the OM tapered axle rear, a 10 or 12 bolt GM, Camero, Chevelle, whatever, (who cares anyway) is exact!
But,,,,,,this is a BIG but,,,,,, most of the GM has coil spring suspension. Take you a month of Sundays ( to keep the heat down) and a whole tank of oxygen to cut all of the GM suspension related hardware off!
Yer best bet for a MoPar to MoPar swap is the B body.
Now lets say for s**ts and giggles. You ARE able to fit a E body rear up in there (????) without the tires rubbing the lip. You now want to go get one of Roger's rear disc brake kits. (He has BOTH non tapers as well as tapered) The wheel spacing (width) is now spaced out whatever the thickness of each rotor is!
Rotors vary in thickness, (depending of which furin country sweat shop machines them out) from 1/4" to 7/16" So double the 1/4" or 7/16'" for each rotor thickness, your tires are NOW have to be into the wheel lip. See what I mean?
B body rear DB kit will put everything back out to OM width measurments.
Measuring. Why do some want to measure from the rough casting flange, where the backing plate goes, for?
Measuring from the machined axle flange or the brake drum face, will give you where the center of the tire/wheel will be. (depending on wheel back space, another story)
Using the flange to flange maesurment, the wheel stance, width, can vary as much as a 1 1/2"!
Maybe the flange to flange measurment is more popular because it can be done with one person. Then, the tape measure is stretched acorss the housing hump,,,,?
Brake drum face to BDF measurment takes two people, two straight edges, is MORE accurate!
If your gain is to get rid of the taperd axles, then f%$#, just put anything in there!
Sounds like you are concerned as to where the tire is, in realtion to the fender lip, then a more accurate method of measurment will have to be used.
First thing in a rear swap is to completely gut the doner rear. Then cut the old spring pads off. New ones can be got at just about any spring place.
Make sure the leaf springs are good or new, with new bushings.
Set the new, or existing spring pads in place on the springs, set the empty housing on the pads, traingulate the width measurment, then put the weight on the springs, bounce a couple of times, then set the pinion angle.
I've got a brane freeze, or lock up! I can't think of the pinion angle! Someone help me here!
Is it 2 degrees down? Or waht degrees down? I know it is down, but I forget how much.
After the pinion angle is set, do the width measurment agin, then check the pinion angle, then tack weld the housing to pads.
Then alternate the welds to keep the heat/warpage down.
Then, paint/powder coat/chrome plate/barber pole/whatever.
That is the procedure I have always used. You do what you want.
But, like wiping yer a##, ecah person has 'their' way of doing things.
What you need to do, is go back into the archives, (beginning) in this section, the modification section, and the general discussion section, and read every post there is about what myself/others have said/done about rear end swaps!
That way you will have multipal ideas on what rear, and priocedure to use.
Remember, put it in wrong and your handling will be effected. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 101
Location: Northern KY | Once again, Thank you Can-man - your knowledge and suggestions are thorough and much (and I do mean much...) appreciated.  |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2011
Location: Ballwin, Missouri | Maybe these will help. Someone supplied them to me when I wanted the same information you are looking for. There is a lot of info about rearends on these two web sites.
http://www.autohobbydigest.com/8_75.html
http://www.moparts.com/Tech/Archive/axle/17.html
Good Hunting. |
|
| |
|
Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Tony. Why you're welcome!
I try to show, or tell both sides. You know, the pro's and con's, and let those use their own judgment as what they want to use or do.
BTW, you forgot to include yer location in your profile section. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | this may be the best excerpt from MOPARTS---------------------later
Here is the passage which explains much of what is involved in checking/setting the pinion angle:
In addition to the vibration that is caused by the operating angles of the universal joints, there are a couple of other reasons to be concerned with these angles. First, the greater the operating angle the more rapidly the joint will wear. Second, the greater the operating angle, the less torque the joint can withstand. Throughout the history of hot rodding, it has happened countless times that a car was fitted with a rear axle of a different origin, with little or no regard for the operating angle of the rear universal joint. If the guy was really lucky, he had no problems. If he was a little bit lucky, he experienced a vibration only under hard acceleration or deceleration, and rapid joint wear. If he was unlucky, he experienced a vibration most of the time, and even the strongest of joints would blow apart under hard acceleration.
Checking and correcting universal joint operating angles is really not difficult, and should always be done on any vehicle that has seen any type of rear suspension modifications, driveline component swaps, or sizable horsepower boosts. This includes the installation of Super Stock springs and many rear-axle swaps. Many unmodified vehicles can benefit from this as well, to compensate for production tolerances, body and frame sag, spring sag, and more. If nothing else, correcting these angles provides peace of mind, reduced vibration, and helps to assure long joint life.
Whether you have access to a commercially available universal joint angularity gauge, or choose to make your own as shown here, before measuring the angles you need to take some precautions. First, remove all cargo from the vehicle. The spare tire and jack can stay, but everything else must go. The gas tank should be full. The specifications for universal joint angles are always given for a vehicle that is sitting at rest on a flat surface. Checking the angles with the vehicle raised and the suspension hanging will assure erroneous readings. The rear suspension must be at its normal static position in relation to the body of the vehicle. To that end, the use of a pit or a drive-on rack will give you plenty of access to the underside of your vehicle while maintaining a normal suspension attitude.
But satisfactory results can be achieved with four jack stands or a combination of jack stands and ramps. Raising the rear of the vehicle and supporting it with jack stands placed under the axle tubes will keep the rear suspension somewhat loaded, but to be properly loaded, the front must be raised as well and supported by the tires with ramps or by the lower control arms with jack stands. Supporting the front of the car by the K-frame with a floor jack is not only dangerous; it will place more of the vehicle's weight on the rear suspension, since the K-frame is ahead of the front wheels. The rear suspension will droop somewhat lower than normal. Supporting the vehicle by jack stands placed under the front frame rails will remove some of the weight from the rear suspension, causing the rear of the car to rise. Either way, your readings will not be accurate.
Typically, for a relatively stock vehicle, the front universal joint operating angle should be between zero and one degree. The specification for the rear joint typically calls for between 2 and 3 degrees. A greater angle is specified for the rear joint because, under acceleration, the leaf springs allow the rear axle to rock backward a little, which causes the pinion to rise slightly. This movement, called leaf spring windup, puts the pinion and driveshaft more in line with each other than when the vehicle is at rest. Drag racers are especially concerned with the rear universal joint angle, for leaf spring windup is very pronounced during a hard launch. Typically, they desire a static reading of 5 to 7 degrees "nose down" in order to maintain a reasonable operating angle when leaving the starting line.
"Nose up" or "nose down" refers to the position of the pinion in relation to the driveshaft, not the ground. For example, if the driveshaft ran from the transmission to the rear axle at a 10 degree angle in relation to the floor, and the center line of the pinion pointed upward toward the transmission at a 7 degree angle, the operating angle of the rear universal joint would be said to be 3 degrees nose down. Even though the center line of the pinion is pointing upward, it is still on less of an angle than the driveshaft. And since we want to express the relationship between the centerline of the pinion and the driveshaft, it is said to be nose down.
Correcting the universal joint angles is accomplished with shims. Starting at the front, if the angle is less than specified, no action is required. Adjusting the front universal joint angle is accomplished by installing shims between the transmission extension housing and the rear transmission mount. Each 1/8-in. shim installed will reduce the joint angle by approximately 1/4 degree. You can either fabricate shims from flat steel plates or use Chrysler spacers, part number 3410700, for this purpose. Correcting the rear universal-joint angle is done with tapered shims placed between the leaf springs and the rear axle spring perches.
(Remember to support the vehicle by the frame before cutting the U-bolts loose!) These wedge shaped shims are available from just about any speed shop and come in 1, 2, 3, and 4 degree values. Installing the shims with the fat end forward will rotate the axle rearward and cause the pinion to 11 nose up," while installing the fat end rearward will rotate the axle forward, causing the pinion to "nose down."
Whenever a correction has been made at either end of the driveshaft, always recheck both universal joint angles. If you need to correct both, always start with the front joint. Changing the front universal-joint angle will likely have a significant impact on the rear joint angle, but changing the rear joint angle usually has a negligible effect on the front joint angle
Edited by 60 dart 2005-01-19 11:30 AM
|
|
| |
|
Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | GEEZE there Wuckey!
Yer haid (WV talk fer 'head') IS good for something, other than growin' HAIR! Whoo-Haw!
What in the hell did you take, some of those 'smart pills!?
THAT is the most 'entelugent' awnser, I'm heard from you YET!!!! |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | don't blame that s**t on me------all i did was copy and paste--------------later |
|
| |
|
Location: Rusting In New York, hello... | So something like that '66 Belvy wagon is a good choice? I can get that pretty cheap, will have to figure out what the gears are etc. but it's better than nothing. |
|
| |
|
Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Rusty. Check the width on that wagon rear. Wagons 'tend to be wider than the passenger car.
Cuckey, I thought you actally did write that pinion angle excerpt yourself!
The mention of, ",,,,using a pit,,,,,"
Since I have one, we talked about it when you were here, and since 'grease pits' are quite RARE nowdays, (those inexpensive, very popular, car lifts) I thought you were awnsering my (brain laps) request for the what degree down for the pinion angle.
Hankey Doodle, Chuckey does seem to have the more book learnin awnsers donesn't he? |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | NO PROBLEM BUDDY------i'll tell you why i don't commit to memory-facts-figures and procedures------when i was 19 i rebuilt a 57 chevrolet 283-MY BABY-----i thought i remembered the rod cap torque specs.------WWWRRROOONNNGGG------drove it 32 mi.-she blew------wasn't a part that could be saved in the bottom end------from that day on i promised myself i would never commit car specs. to memory------NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL!
all you other guys do a much better explanation of procedures that i could ever do !------now if you wanted a power house built------that's my BALLPARK------later |
|
| |
|
Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Hey there Razzle Nuts!
You wouldn't happen to have a picture(s) to go along with that in depth pinion angle article description would you? |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | THAT'S RAZZLE-DAZZLE NUTS TO YOU------------------PILGRIM  ------this is about the most beneficial illistrations i have found------hand drawn but they work------notice at 2* down the rear would actually be level but from what i understand is that the 2*is used for the 4 point rears and 5-7 for leaf springs------depending on who's telling the story-seems to be a number of settings and lets not forget the application------if you're running leaf springs and say 10 in. slicks just as an example-then the pinion angle would have to be greater (at rest) to accomodate the traction gains------if you don't add to pinion angles due to traction factor-during wind up the pinion angle would all wrong resulting in universal failure but like i said it's all in who's telling the story------CANMAN and STEVE is GOOD at splanen this stuff----------me------i'd listen-----------later
http://buickperformance.com/Pinion.htm
------later
Edited by 60 dart 2005-01-21 1:55 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | here's another----------------later
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/drivelinephasing/drivelinephas...
|
|
| |
best bolt on rear end?
