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Location: Waterloo, IL (near St, Louis, MO) | So the weather has been extremely nice around here for April and I decided to dive back into my '58 Savoy (soon to be Belvedere conversion) project. Got all the power brake equipment installed and working just fine, and then there was a problem. I was having vacuum issues and she kept dying or running very rough when the engine got warm. Turned out I had bad intake gaskets, so I ordered new ones and figured I could use the time inside the engine to inspect everything and clean out any gook. I had no idea what I was in for. Apparently nobody ever changed the oil in my 318 before I got her. I spent a full afternoon with a scraper and a shop-vac removing Quaker slate from the engine cavity. Heads and bottom end are next. Next time you're tempted to put off an oil change, remember these pictures.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Trogdor42/Car%20Restoration/...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Trogdor42/Car%20Restoration/...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Trogdor42/Car%20Restoration/...
Ewwy.
-Trogs |
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Location: Blythewood, SC | Non detergent oil strikes again! The previous owner may have kept up the maintenance. It's just that the older non detergent oil didn't keep the sludge in suspension like the newer stuff does. |
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Regular
Posts: 76
| I pulled my engine to replace the freeze plugs and the inside of the engine looked just like yours does. So while it is out I am going to have the block "cooked" and start brand new. If you are not going to rebuild your engine I would change the oil pump and add a low pressure oil cut off. |
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Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | Jeez... and I thought my Marine hemi was bad... at least mine was all in the oil pan. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | They don't call it Pennsylvania CRUDE, for nothing.
I've got no idea what kind of stove oil that 'they' put into your car, but PA-crude was heavily laden with parafin--
which, as A. Palmer was proud to proclaim: worked just fine in his family's tractor.
Today's oils are infinitely better refined, and even Quaker Slate and PennsOyl reportedly are parafin-free.
Suffice it to day that whatever that grunge is/was, it had little or no detergent additives in it....and, yeah, "detergent"
oils are controversial, in their doing a too-good of a job, on sludged up engines!
Edited by d500neil 2012-04-19 9:25 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | Paraffin oils were thought to be a good idea well into the 60's. Wax is slick, right ?
I remember the ads featuring Nascar drivers extolling the performance of these
oils. They just kinda "overlooked" the small matter of tearing down their engines
between races. Something the average daily driver doesn't do.
I bought a very nice 58 Buick Cabellero for my ex. Super documented car with a
dictionary of entries showing every oil change and tire pressure check since new. The
car had 495,000 miles on it and looked like it was a nice 2-year-old car. And then we
drove it home ....
Pitched a rod out the side of the block of that old 364.
When I tried to break it down for parts, the valve covers would not come off. It was as
if they were glued down. It took a plumber's torch to heat them to get the waxy sludge
to let go. The rockers were completely encased in a shell of this hardened goo, only
enough room carved out inside for them to move. It is a wonder it had not blown itself
up many miles previous.
Just for laughs, when I backed up to find the ex sitting alongside the road after the engine
deep-sixed itself, I asked her if she heard any unusual noises just before it happened. Her
response ?
"Yeah, ... it sounded like a loud banging, so I turned the radio up louder" !!! 
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Regular
Posts: 54
Location: Aquasco, MD | A few years back I bought a 318 with a 727 out of a 33k mile Plymouth Satellite, figuring I'd just freshen it up with some new gaskets and change the intake, carb, and cam and drop it into my Belvedere. When I pulled the intake off I saw almost the same thing, except it had a white/milky film on top. First thing I thought was that I had blown head gasket or cracked head because of the film. Ended up pulling the whole thing down and having it all cleaned and checked out. Turned out everything was fine, but the guy at the machine shop said that the oil had probably never been changed in all those miles.
Worst one I had ever seen was an old S-10 Blazer we bought cheap to fix up as a driver. I already knew the motor was bad- it had the 2.8 V6 which has well known oiling issues especially if you don't keep up on your maintenence. I drove the truck home- it ran but sounded like one of those old mercedes diesels, made one hell of a racket. Once we got it home I pulled the valve cover off and the oil had caked up to the top of the rocker arms, almost to the underside of the top of the valve cover and was hard as a rock. You had to take a hammer and chisel and chip it away. I'd never seen anything like it, and couldn't believe it would still run at that point. The truck had over 200k on the odometer and I doubt it ever had an oil change up to that point.
I've always changed my oil at regular intervals... older cars at least once a year or every 3k, and my drivers at every 4 to 5k. |
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Veteran
Posts: 128
Location: Denver | my 277 looked exactly like that. took the valve cover off to reseal a leak and decided to rebuild the engine after seeing that mess. the exhaust crossover valve was stuck shut so it was pumping all of the exhaust through the manifold and severely cooked the passenger side head and under the manifold. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | have you pulled the oil pan ? i'm doin a 64 383 that looks the twin to your motors interior . when i pulled the oil pan , even a greater surprise , a 1/2 inch of sludge so thick it wouldn't run out . the smell of the oil combined with what has to be fuel blow by . the odor was something from the past i remembered as a kid , going past one of the Koppers plants here in the valley 50 yrs. ago . it's a stench one never forgets . to my surprise though all the bearings weren't in too bad of shape . they were all scored but way less than i expected . so if you haven't gotten into the bottom end , you may need to . my bertha only had 34k on her but all the bearings were scored but one --------------------------------------------------------later
pssssssss. when the 383 is reinstalled i'm thinkin real hard about using royal purple motor oil
as it
may have the correct additives for our older engines . it's not inexpensive though about 9$ a
quart .
Edited by 60 dart 2012-04-20 12:46 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 957
Location: Signal Mountain, TN | The 301 in my Savoy was like what Chuck described above sludgewise, with more actually in the pan, about 1" plus of that nasty, burnt goop... The bearings were fine, though... strange...
I still have the last oil change sticker in the door jamb from around 1991.... It still has the Quaker State emblem on it.
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Veteran
Posts: 100
Location: Waterloo, IL (near St, Louis, MO) | Thanks everyone for the advice and anecdotes. They're most entertaining. I'm going to go ahead and pull the valve covers and oil pan and do the same job on them. Brass toothbrush and kerosene on the valve springs and rockers and such?
I'll post more pics when I get in there. And 19Belvedere56, thanks so much for mentioning the crossover. Never would have thought of that but I'll check it out.
And Jim, can you give me some more info (here or in a PM, whichever) about the low pressure cutoff? I've got no experience there, as I've only ever just replaced pumps with new ones from the parts store as they come in the box.
Thanks again!
Oh, and BarnFind57, I love the Cracker quote. Johnny Hickman is a friend of mine, and I love David's writing. I have an interview I did with David and Johnny backstage about a year ago. If you want, send me your email address and I'll send you an .mp3. They were great to talk to.
-Trogs
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Location: Parts Unknown | Going the other direction, ... the 66 Coronet cop car I have shows 39K on the clock.
Sat since 1979, so I drained the oil, poured some solvent through it to flush the pan.
Nothing too weird there. Then I dropped the tranny pan and checked the pumpkin.
Bright red and clear tranny fluid and not a bit of sludge in the pan. Even the usual
"cone" of shavings under the band was not there. The rear end had fresh smelling
clear and golden 90 weight filled up high. It is the cleanest old car drivetrain I have
ever seen. 
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | I found this under the valvecovers of a 'running' 413 in my '64 NY once.
And this mess was found in my '57 392 Hemi.
The oil drained from this engine was fairly new and still brownish, but after taking it apart I noticed fresh oil just laying on top of an 1 of rubberised gunk in the pan.
All the internals seemed coated aswell with a thin layer of rubber.
No matter what kind of degreaser I used, nothing would touch it. The only way to get it off was by using a large flatblade screwdriver, or, when I got tired of scraping and sticking, dropping it all of at a shop who dunked the block into a large bath of lye.
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Posts: 2290
Location: Eastern Iowa | I think I'm gonna be sick!!!
Dave S. |
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Posts: 2637
Location: Minor Hill, TN | use an oil with detergent additives , halvoline from texaco has additives in it that is 1 of the good oils |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 475
Location: Las Vegas, NV | Yikes! So Are you guys saying that Quaker State is bad? I hope not. I have been using it for over 2 decades, and had no idea. |
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Regular
Posts: 76
| A low oil cutoff switch will turn off your engine should the oil pressure get low and hopefully save your engine. With an engine that slugged up, a clogged pick up tube or strainer for the oil pump is a real concern.
A low oil cutoff switch is a requirement should you convert to an electric fuel pump. This switch can be connected to the oil pressure port on your engine and wired from there.
Edited by jim's56 2012-04-22 7:07 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | Yeah, my Dad was a QS user. Used it from day 1 on the new '65 Galaxie & tore it down for a redo @ 100K. Lifter valley looked like it was paved with asphalt |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I stopped using and recommending Pennzoil when my (then-) Break My Window mechanic laughed and said that he
knew I was using the stuff because of the (paraffin) grunge deposits on the valve cover and rocker areas.
I'm committed to Valvoline oil products, and have been running their.....( ZDDP rich 20/50 racing formulation
in H., recently)...products for many years.
Edited by d500neil 2012-04-23 12:04 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | Brad Penn, Mobil 1 Synthetic, Valvoline Fullsyn and Castrol Syntec are about all I use any more. I use the Brad Penn in the 57 and whatever synthetic is cheapest that day in the others. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | Since we are on the subject of oil in our old OHV motors...
I just bought some Shell Retella straight 30 at Walmart. It's rated CF, which is the older spec and says it's for older pre-emission vehicles. So I'm thinking it SHOULD have the ZDDP stuff in it. All the other Rotella oils were rated CJ, which I know does NOT have the good stuff in it any more. But the straight 30 weight is still CF.
Either way, I also bough Lucas Oil Break-in additive at Advanced Auto for $15. I read somewhere online that we need at least 1200ppm in the oil in our cars (new oil is under 800.) And that with the Lucas Break-in additive, it pushes that number over 6000ppm. So my idea is to buy the (pricey) break-in additive and use about half a bottle at a time (which should still get me 3000ppm), and so otherwise (after the motor is broken in) I can use whatever oil I want.
Anybody know of any reason that his is not a good idea? |
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Regular
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Location: Aquasco, MD | My grandfather used to dump a quart of transmission fluid in with the oil whenever he changed it on almost all of his cars. After 100k+ on one they pulled valve covers and intake off to do some upgrades and the motor was clean as a whistle- no buildup whatsoever. My father did this for a while as well, and I did it occasionally on some of my older trucks- mainly my 2.8 V6 S-10 pickup because they were notorious for sludge buildup problems in the top end of the motors. Don't know if anyone else has heard of doing this?
I've generally stuck with Valvoline in all my vehicles, but in a pinch I've used Castrol. Always heard nothing but bad things about Quaker State since before I started driving, so I wouldn't touch the stuff if they paid me to. |
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Veteran
Posts: 128
Location: Denver | i add a quart of transmission fluid to my older cars before i change the oil. add it a couple days before i want to change the oil and let it clean everything up. don't want to leave it in too long because atf is made for different types of force than regular oil. it's just a cheap way to get all of the additives that are in atf. i like to find the cheapest oil i can for my older cars, if you ask for the sales flyer (that the salesman gives to the shop that sells it) you can see that most of the really cheap oils are high in zddp. i currently am using mag one which has a really high amount for an oil that cost $2.50 a quart. |
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Expert
Posts: 1530
Location: ZH, Switzerland | I guess it's not very important which brand or detergent or not of oil you or I fill in to the engine. But it's very important to exchange the oil regularly, let's say once a year at least or every 5000 miles like the manuals of the cars of the FLK decade recommended. I was really glad when I saw the inside of my truck engine. It looked like new, even the valve springs were colored. It's a '64 truck /w a 318 poly engine and opened 2006. Actually I don't know what to expect when I'll ever would remove the valley cover of the engine of my Chrysli. I guess first I'll remove the valve covers only...
Happy Motoring!
Dieter
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Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | I use transmission oil in my '58 Cadillac every couple of years, to flush the engine before I do an oil change. Also, I find that it will "unstick" a noisy lifter, if one is ticking. I run it for about 250-300 miles before the change. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yeah----250 to 500 miles is about right, for the ATF to do its magic.
Anybody else ever heard the derogatory comment (from auto mechanics) about "Mechanic In A Can"....?
Pretty much regardless which modern oil is used, we all should ensure that our cars' engines get to be
fully warmed up every time that we drive our cars.
Edited by d500neil 2012-04-24 4:38 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | CI & earlier diesel oil has plenty of zddp, I wouldn't add more to it. Wal-mart has resumed stocking "Accel" brand 10W-40 SF oil(pre SM is good) & i noticed some SF oil in Doller General recently. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | d500neil - 2012-04-24 4:36 PM
Anybody else ever heard the derogatory comment (from auto mechanics) about "Mechanic In A Can"....?
There is no such thing. No magic forula that will repair a worn out engine. You can dump anything you want in it and it'll still burn the hell outta oil if it looks like that sludged up sh*t I see above. THIS is why I NEVER buy an older car and fire it right up. I ALWAYS pull the engine down to see if the inside looks like the mess above. And some WONDER why their 1956 DeSoto smokes, ticks, rattles, knocks, has low/no oil pressure. |
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Expert
Posts: 1530
Location: ZH, Switzerland | Today I went to my Chrysler to look for oil sludge. I used a folding yardstick (meter) and put it trough the filler tube until I reached the bottom. Then I took it out and at the end of the yardstick (meter) was some sludge. It's funny when I refill some oil the dip stick shows brand new oil and when there is a leak (e.g. like the leaking filter case) black oil comes out (black like raw oil)...
A mechanic tells... a modern engine puts higher stress to motor oil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC-SxrsgEwo
Happy Motoring!
Dieter |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Your dipstick (what do you call yardsticks-meter sticks?) doesn't go all the way down to the sludge-level, and the oil pick up (screen) is also sited above the sludge-level.
I've never thought about inserting something like a stick or rod into the oil filler tube, to see what gets picked up onto its
end.
One of those fiber optic guys would also be neat, but, it would have to be inserted when the oil is drained from the pan.
Edited by d500neil 2012-04-26 7:44 PM
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | dukeboy - 2012-04-24 9:12 PM
d500neil - 2012-04-24 4:36 PM
Anybody else ever heard the derogatory comment (from auto mechanics) about "Mechanic In A Can"....?
There is no such thing. No magic forula that will repair a worn out engine. You can dump anything you want in it and it'll still burn the hell outta oil if it looks like that sludged up sh*t I see above. THIS is why I NEVER buy an older car and fire it right up. I ALWAYS pull the engine down to see if the inside looks like the mess above. And some WONDER why their 1956 DeSoto smokes, ticks, rattles, knocks, has low/no oil pressure.
Edited by Shep 2012-04-26 7:44 PM
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Location: ZH, Switzerland | d500neil - 2012-04-26 1:41 AM
Your dipstick (what do you call yardsticks-meter sticks?) doesn't go all the way down to the sludge-level, and the oil pick up (screen) is also sited above the sludge-level.
I've never thought about inserting something like a stick or rod into the oil filler tube, to see what gets picked up onto its
end.
One of those fiber optic guys would also be neat, but, it would have to be inserted when the oil is drained from the pan.
From the pictures I've seen about engine blocks coated with thick and heavy sludge, the bottom of the V, where the camshaft is, usually is coated with sludge, too. I do not have a fiber optic, I'm afraid I do not drive an automotive shop. So I looked around what's flexible and could cope the bow in the oil filler tube. I don't know what I touched. But I guess the block (cast iron and not the camshaft), because the end of the meter was coated with sludge. If I would have touched a lobe I guess there wouldn't be sludge at the end of the meter stick.
Neil: (what do you call yardsticks-meter sticks?) - it could be that I've chosen the wrong word - I'm sorry.
Happy Motoring!
DieterBTW: the pictures shows what I wanted to explain...
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | Manson - 2012-04-21 12:23 AM
A few years back I bought a 318 with a 727 out of a 33k mile Plymouth Satellite, figuring I'd just freshen it up with some new gaskets and change the intake, carb, and cam and drop it into my Belvedere. When I pulled the intake off I saw almost the same thing, except it had a white/milky film on top. First thing I thought was that I had blown head gasket or cracked head because of the film. Ended up pulling the whole thing down and having it all cleaned and checked out. Turned out everything was fine, but the guy at the machine shop said that the oil had probably never been changed in all those miles.
Worst one I had ever seen was an old S-10 Blazer we bought cheap to fix up as a driver. I already knew the motor was bad- it had the 2.8 V6 which has well known oiling issues especially if you don't keep up on your maintenence. I drove the truck home- it ran but sounded like one of those old mercedes diesels, made one hell of a racket. Once we got it home I pulled the valve cover off and the oil had caked up to the top of the rocker arms, almost to the underside of the top of the valve cover and was hard as a rock. You had to take a hammer and chisel and chip it away. I'd never seen anything like it, and couldn't believe it would still run at that point. The truck had over 200k on the odometer and I doubt it ever had an oil change up to that point.
I've always changed my oil at regular intervals... older cars at least once a year or every 3k, and my drivers at every 4 to 5k.
Yes, I have a similar story,
When I worked as a car mechanic in the '80's here in Australia, I remember 3 vehicles that definately showed lazy oil change intervals.
One was a late '60's Toyota Stout petrol engine that I had to adjust the very noisy tappets.
Pulled the valve cover off and found that much sludge in it, that it had completely formed a milky/brown/black jellylike perfect mirror image mould of the rocker shaft/rockers/valve assembly !!
Another was a mid '70's 6 cyl Diesel Toyota Landcruiser that when I undid the oil pan drain plug, no oil came out .
The oil was that thick from lack of maintenance that it had formed a very thick sludge ( about the same viscosity as a jar of honey kept in a refridgerator ) and it wasn't able to drain. The engine was at operating temp as well and it wasn't a cold day.
I had to find a long 1/2 inch round bar and shove it up the drain hole, pull it out, and wipe the "oil" ??? off with a rag.
After about 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour of this I eventually re-fitted the plug, topped up the engine with very cheap supermarket oil and took it on a 20 mile run.
Was then able to have another go at draining the oil, this time it sorta looked like oil when it drained instead of the thickened honey like black sludge that had been in it earlier.
Drained the cheap oil, and re-filled with quality oil.
Recommended to the customer that he brought it back and have the valve cover and oil pan removed for a clean later on but he never came back.
Found out later that he was a cow kocky that came down from the hills once a year ( probably showered once a year also ) and was re-nown as a cheapskate that wouldn't spend his money on anything, hence his sludged up engine I guess.
Last vehicle I had an oil drainage problem was a 4 cyl diesel Holden ( Holden is an Australian GM company ) Rodeo, ( Alias IZUZU ), same story, mean and nasty cheapskate that only put fresh oil in an engine when it needed a top up from oil usage.
He eventually traded it in, we serviced it for re-sale on the car lot, couldn't get any oil to come out after removing the drain plug. Pulled the pan off, the "oil " ?? was like thickened black honey.
After having seen these lack-of-maintenance examples myself, I personally drain my own cars oils every 2000 miles or so as a precaution.
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | d500neil - 2012-04-20 1:23 PM
They don't call it Pennsylvania CRUDE, for nothing.
I've got no idea what kind of stove oil that 'they' put into your car, but PA-crude was heavily laden with parafin--
which, as A. Palmer was proud to proclaim: worked just fine in his family's tractor.
Today's oils are infinitely better refined, and even Quaker Slate and PennsOyl reportedly are parafin-free.
Suffice it to day that whatever that grunge is/was, it had little or no detergent additives in it....and, yeah, "detergent"
oils are controversial, in their doing a too-good of a job, on sludged up engines!
When I was an apprentice mechanic here in Australia all those years ago , our then Tech College ( mechanic school ) teachers preached to us that modern oils with high detergents when used in an old engine would to "too good a job" in an old engine by eventually de-carboning/cleaning the carbon build up behind the piston ring grooves ( and other engine parts ) .
Then these well used/worn rings would become "unstuck" and if piston ring grooves are also worn ( likely in an old engine ) this then accelerated ring blowby around/between the inside of the ring and the ring groove and therefore some compression loss would result.
Also ring "flutter" would/could result from free floating rings and finally ring breakage resulting in even more compression loss.
Probably right in theory, but after many years ( long ago ) of engine re-rings/rebuilds and sitting there for hours with old broken rings and hand de-carboning many ring grooves ( before the invention of modern fandangle ring cleaning tools ) , I'm not convinced entirely that the carbon build up behind piston rings can be easily removed from just using high detergent oils alone.
I've never personally experienced engine apocalypse from using modern detergent oils in old engines but I can say that modern oils do a far better job of keeping an engine clean than their old oily ancesters.
There's my 2 cent story.........
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Expert
Posts: 3951
Location: Bama | All this talk about the crud in the motor and no talk about most or half of the roads being dirt back then. Old oil and such sprayed on the roads to keep the dust down.
No mention of bulk oil.
No mention of most people had only been driving for 20 yrs or so by then. They didn't know to change the oil.
Some people back then did know to change the oil and others bought their bulk oil.
My .02 |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY | I win!! My poly 318 was the sludgiest engine I've ever seen
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Location: Brooklyn NY | wrong photo, that's the after |
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Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY | here we go
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 802
Location: Norcross (Atlanta area), GA | Has anyone on this forum had any experience with using Amsoil?
http://www.amsoil.com/start.aspx
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Why to keep up on your oil changes. My '58 Savoy
