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Doctor DeSoto |
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    Location: Parts Unknown | 1959 Belvedere Conv - 2010-04-24 8:49 PM Dr. D I have the engineering handbook/brochure that Chrysler put out internally to it's engineers, summarizing the entire program. And even who got to drive the cars in the general public. I can make a copy and mail it to you if you want one. ************************************************ I guess I should clarify .... It would be fun to sit in the passenger seat and watch someone diddle the knobs, putting the car through the paces. That engine looks like a boilerplated trashcan with a few linkage rods ! I want to HEAR it run !  | ||
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| GaryS |
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Expert Posts: 1208   Location: Ponder, TX | |||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | |||
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| Lancer Mike |
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Location: The Mile High City | |||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Yep, It was "Quite A Ride Mike" You probably heard where Aivar said, "My Foot Got Heavy" after ya heard the chirping tires. He also said He has gotta quit wearing his "Frankenstein Boots" When He drives these cars.  | ||
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| Lancer Mike |
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Location: The Mile High City | |||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | My 59 is a Dual Quad 400 with a "Hot Cam" ----(has an attitude) Luv it!! I had the seller install a 276 rear end ratio to replace the 355 as I wanted a nice "Freeway Cruiser", and She is, She just loafs along on the freeway. With that ratio, I'm not gonna be smoking the tires, but once you get the engine "wound up a bit" She takes off real good. In fact Borje and I raced them on the freeway, his 383 with dual 4's and my 400 and I pulled him, not a runaway, but He and his 2 sweed freinds got to see that tail end of my car  I had thought about putting a gear vendors OD in the 59 and going with a lower gear ratio 376 or something, but at my age, I dont really need that, besides I got my 64 with "Lites them up in 1st and 2nd both" (When it shifts)sooooo I think I leave the 59 as a cruiser. Gary | ||
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| Sonoramic60 |
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Expert Posts: 1290 | |||
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| 1959 Belvedere Conv |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 1107 Location: Arvada, Colorado (NW Denver Metro Area) | Alright Joe! Looks like we have a Colorado FL smack down! We are racing for Pinks boys! Lancer Mike's 58 Convertible Desoto, (Fuel injected, super charged & nitro burning, twice pipes and fuzzy dice) ride versus Joe(Talking smack!) Godec in his 60 Plymouth Sonoramic with Long Rams! (normally aspirated motor). Little do you know Joe, that Mike has some surplus JATO rockets he bought at a DOD sale. You are going down!!! First one to the west Vail exit wins!!! LOL  Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2010-04-27 11:33 PM | ||
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| 1959 Belvedere Conv |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 1107 Location: Arvada, Colorado (NW Denver Metro Area) | |||
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| Sonoramic60 |
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Expert Posts: 1290 | John -- Actually, I have a 426 Hemi in the trunk. But it has a rope attached to my rear axle and I kick it out to stop -- I used to stick my foot out the door and drag it, but I stubbed my toe on/on a Colorado Springs pothole. Those old Lockheed drums are worse than lousy! Joe PS, I never heard of a ram-induction car being normally aspirated before. PPS, I could always borrow a page from Andy Granatelli and put a Paxton supercharger on each carb -- then I'd have TWO hemi's in the trunk to stop! | ||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Hmmmm, long drive, but I guess I will hafta drive out my 64 Dodge with the 426, Just to remind you guys what the rear of a 64 Dodge looks like---may I assume, Mike, that you will drive the Desoto Conv, to Calif?--I will make a place for it in my Garage (Not sure where I will park the 2 Plymouths thou? Gary | ||
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| Sonoramic60 |
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Expert Posts: 1290 | |||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | |||
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| Doctor DeSoto |
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Location: Parts Unknown | |||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | |||
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| 1959 Belvedere Conv |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 1107 Location: Arvada, Colorado (NW Denver Metro Area) | Joe, Normally aspirated would be a aspirated squared for your car! But with no super-charger or turbo it would qualify.....Just a lot of fuel and air is being sucked in with your twin carb long rams! Don't know if fuel injection would qualify as normally aspirated, I think it does since there is no external system to push in more air then ambient pressure, but regular carbs, whether two 4's barrels such as your car, would be considered normally aspirated. LOL I will defer to the experts on this one.... Edited by 1959 Belvedere Conv 2010-04-28 7:48 PM | ||
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| Sonoramic60 |
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Expert Posts: 1290 | Gary -- Your '59 Dodge (I always loved those '59s, especially the Royal Lancers) leads me to bring up a point about MoPar horsepower ratings in in 1959 and 1960. In '59, the Dodge 383 CID engine with 2X4V carbs, was listed as having 345 HP while the same engine in DeSoto was given 350. However, Dodge Division produce ALL the "B Series" engines. In 1960, the Plymouth 361 CID SonoRamic came out at 310 horses, but the Dart's ram-inducted 361 was 320. Both divisions' ram 383s were rated at 330. It seems to me, that if the ram 413 of the 300F, which had basically the same components as the ram 361s and 383s, was rated at 375, the smaller engines should have proportional horsepower figures, i.e., the 361 (87% the size of the 413) or 325-330 HP, and the 383 (93%) some 350-360. This seems even more evident in light of the '58 and '59 ratings for the 2X4V carb 361s and 383s. Doc -- I totally agree with the 375/400 being a good match for the Street Hemi. It had loads of torque and was easy to keep in tune. John -- Since there were only 1557 '60 Plymouths produced with ram engines, its rarity compells me (I like that) to insist(!) it is not a normally aspirated engine. Besides, did you know that ram-induction was called the "poor man's supercharger"? Joe | ||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | |||
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| Doctor DeSoto |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Getting nuts and bolts with HP figures down to decimal points is an exercise in futility, especially with a viewpoint 50+ years distant. Even doing it right here, right now without a dyno is pretty subjective. As it has been explained to me by those far more knowing of race engines and the building components involved, bore means everything in terms of off-the-line take off, so in terms of B-blocks and horsepower, the 383 reigns supreme amongst the early engines for weight-to-horsepower ratios ... the 350 and 361 just dragging along more cast iron that is space put to use in the 383. The RB blocks having the stroked aspect, lose the low end torque, but on the larger bores tend to "square-out" more to produce similar torque ranges as the 383, but on an escalated scale due the raising of both principles. From this bonehead's perspective, I could detect no difference in go-fast between my old 60 DeSoto with its crossram 383 and my old 61 NY'er with rams on the 413. Four inches of extra car and added trim might have slowed the NY'er down a tad ? The manual shift in the DeSoto created a direct-drive sensation that made the two hard to compare. But when in the very difficult to keep "top tune", both were hair trigger beasts that could easily render a good set of tires to melted rubber with the slightest touch of the pedal. My 66 Coronet runs a mildly modified 375 horse rated 440 Magnum with electronic ignition, A-833 4-speed, and 3.23 posi out back. I don't recall ever weighing the car, so I can't say how it compares to the two mentioned above, but the threshold of monstrously oversized engine vs. car it is pushing has been breached and where I never had an issue of the FL cars getting "squirrelly" on me, the Coronet can get sideways in a hurry without even giving it a full pedal. I am interested in the brute potential of these cars, but I am even more interested in NOT piling them up and so my experimentation has been limited to playful moments here and there. I am no scientist on this subject. Good tires are not cheap and hard driving really wears a car out fast, so my interest in acceleration is largely seated in that brisk movement without breaking traction, something even the lowliest of 4bbl 383 can do with impressive results. I remember reading an interview with Carroll Shelby regarding an experimental car he built named "Little Red". In his understated way, he wrote "Car chirps tires in all four gears at any speed and accelerates briskly above 100". Beyond that kind of report, what more could a guy want in a car ? | ||
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| Sonoramic60 |
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Expert Posts: 1290 | |||
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| 1959 Belvedere Conv |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 1107 Location: Arvada, Colorado (NW Denver Metro Area) | |||
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| Doctor DeSoto |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Sonoramic60 - 2010-04-30 3:28 PM Doc -- Where you been?!: "bore means everything in terms of off-the-line take off."? You had better read Archimedes. That's why a few "RB" 383s (stroke: 3.75) somehow got into some '60 Furys rather than the regular B-383's (stroke: 3:38). Since I'm an old fudd who has ruined a few tires in my day (and who still is not afraid of a challenge at a stop light), I can also say that those high reving Chebbies with big bores and short strokes) may have eliminated me in Stock Eliminator run offs, there was never even a '62 409/409 Impala SS that was better than the BTB on the street. In those days, that first BTB would have sucked any (repeat, ANY!) DeSoto or Chrysler tub up the left exhaust, chewed it up in the crankcase, and spit it out the right. Big cars are great (I do have a real 300C), but there is no ignoring the old horsepower weight ratio. In such a light, would you care to compare that little 327 in Ol' Shake, Rattle, and Roar against your 440s? -- but only through the quarter. Joe ************************************************** Jo-Jo, Now you are adding a whole new element to the equation. I thought you cats were strictly comparing horsepower ratings ? Now you want to talk about weight ? My DeSoto is a 3-ton hulk and moves out pretty smoothly for a garbage scow, but I could not care less how it ranks as a drag racer. As I stated in my post above, I like Carroll Shelby's understated kind of evaluation. That is all I require to know about how "fast" my cars are. The DeSoto is a smooth cruiser, the Coronet is a nice, roadable car, but has way too much power for its weight with those coffee can sized pistons, ... to the point of being dangerous. As far as I am concerned, the reason I landed upon the 58 DeSoto Fireflite convertible over ALL other cars was that it smokes them all hands down without ever pulling away from the curb. This body style has a majestic grace like nothing else, even other Exner creations. We all have our favorites for different reasons and racing has never been a concern of mine. It does well for what it is, but eye appeal overrules every time. In repeated efforts to build sound engines that perform well both in power delivery and fuel economy, I have called upon my motorhead friends many times and learned a couple things along the way about basic power producing principles. Adding in variables like a 327 Corvette vs. some 440 car (a B-body, I presume?) just opens such a can of worms .... I'm going to stick with stunning curb appeal and respectable performance. You "punks" will have to race your cars without me ! | ||
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| 1959 Belvedere Conv |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 1107 Location: Arvada, Colorado (NW Denver Metro Area) | |||
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| Sonoramic60 |
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Expert Posts: 1290 | |||
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| Doctor DeSoto |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Precisely the reason why I used the term. | ||
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| 58 DESOTOS RULE |
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Expert Posts: 2309 Location: The Bat Cave, Fairborn, OH | |||
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| 1959Dodge |
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Expert Posts: 2244 Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | |||
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