Re: {Chrysler 300} 300 F Engine overheating

Not an expert, but lots of experience with 60-62 Chryslers, both letter and non-letter, a/c and non-a/c, and here is what I've seen:

All the letter cars, a/c or not, had clutch fans. The non-a/c cars did not have a fan shroud, and had radiators with a top inlet near the center of the top tank. A/C cars had a fan shroud, which was attached to an A/C radiator with top inlet over on the passenger side of the car, thus using a different top hose as well. The fan shroud will not bolt on to the non-A/C radiator because the center inlet is in the way.

On non-letter cars with A/C, the same configuration of clutch fan, shroud, and radiator with inlet on the passenger side was used, but non-A/C cars had center top inlet radiator, no shroud, and no clutch fan.

Also, the thermostat housing is different on the 413 motors for A/C vs. non-A/C, since the compressor is in the way of the top hose that comes straight up and connects to the inlet in the middle of the non-A/C radiator. The A/C thermostat housing is on about a 45 degree angle to allow for the A/C top hose to come out from under it on the way to the passenger side top inlet of the A/C radiator.

Again, no expert, but it is what I saw consistently over the years.

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 3:43 PM Keith Boonstra <kboonstra@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

John,

As Mr. Merritt points out, fan clutches were standard on all or most Letter Cars whether they had factory A/C or not. I know my ’57 without factory A/C always had a fan clutch. However, my car did not have a shroud. It seems very likely the fan shroud was an A/C-car-only feature.

Incidentally, the constant design speed of the early clutches without the thermal valve is somewhere around 30 to 35% of water pump speed. The later ones with the thermal valve and a bi-metal coil on the front kick up to something in the area of 60 to 65% of pump rpm only when the air coming through the radiator exceeds some pre-set temperature. On a hot day on the road you can hear the fan rpm rise and fall as the excess coolant heat calls for it.

Keith Boonstra

-

From: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2024 12:48 PM
To: dave mason <forwardlook300@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Keith Boonstra <kboonstra@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; Steve <sbeard2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; chrysler 300 club <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} 300 F Engine overheating

That is a really interesting statement, Keith .. I may not have noticed despite so many years ,which cars have fan clutch and which don't ---but I believe the fan clutch also has a more aggressive fan, so more cooling at low RPM would be the end result, the reason for doing it--(traffic) Ram cars do not like running hot at low speed , AC or not. Idle gets flaky etc...Implied in that is that a solid mount fan is not as effective at low RPM? maybe fewer blades

Do we know if non AC ram F did not have a clutch? or option? Gets into a 4 row radiator the best thing of all, and all the 413 water pump changes . There had to have been some issues around all this? never been into the history of the car options personally ,but I know others are very into that. Maybe someone knows what was really done or offered on fan clutch/radiator packages? HD packages??

Sorry for assuming all have a fan clutch...and that this one has.

I do know an electric pusher fan about 12" diameter cannot cool a 440 at idle....so this must all be close...

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 12:25 PM dave mason <forwardlook300@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Unless the direct fan is installed with a spacer.

I’m glad you mentioned this Keith because I was going to ask folks, why a non a/c F has a clutch in the first place, as opposed to non letter 413 cars that just have a solid direct fan with a spacer? Because cross ram cars could generate more heat?

Sent from my iPhone

On May 6, 2024, at 12:19, Keith Boonstra <kboonstra.zeegroup@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I got a message from Steve this morning that I can’t find right now. Steve said that he has no fan clutch in place, just a direct mount of the fan on the water pump. So the fan is running at full speed and this is not a fan clutch problem.

However, without a fan clutch taking up space between the engine and the radiator, I’m going to guess that the problem is that the fan is now too far back from the radiator to be effectively pulling air through it.

Keith Boonstra

-

On Mon, May 6, 2024 at 6:38 AM John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

probably fan clutch , they go … hard to tell decisively too

have to watch “ new water pump “ as they sell you a 440 pump now. There are variations in 413 pumps i never got to the bottom of myself . But got bit once . Some early block front covers had metal flow directors inside behind pump others did not , add in AC or not , and i believe due to this plate the pumps changed in how far they reach into cavity . . if you put a 440 pump in you can end up with a space behind impeller and it pumps very poorly . I did not measure any of this at the time but someone may know . Confusing and erroneous data out there on this .

discussions with parts guys can get heated all they know is numbers , it is a 440 pump you get unless a part lookup from 1960 but even that crosses in computer to440 pump . Which might work depending on details of front cover cavity

There are articles about adapting i think it was JAG fan clutch too . , as the clutches vary in thickness . tech site has info on that .

Sometimes parts get mixed over 60 years wrong blades etc etc

personally if building new i’d look at modern aluminum 440 covers and pump , at least you kniw they go together , and pump fully evolved

but my bet is fan clutch

john

Sent from my iPhone

On May 5, 2024, at 3:37 PM, Steve <sbeard2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hello again from Delaware,Ohio.

Got a overheating issue.

2 weeks ago drove it 50 miles. Brought it in and it was super hot. Put a new thermostat in and temp guage was in the middle. Flushed engine today 3 times and new antifreeze.

Drove it 50 miles, temp outside 70.

Brought it in and radiator was gurgling and super hot and upper radiator hose was not the usual stuff hose.

Was steaming a little. Had radiator done within 5 years and new water pump also

Infrared temp at radiator cap 200, and engine 240.

Got a week to figure it out or a big no on driving to kokomo.

Thanks in advance.

Ps

Got a new water pump ready to go?

Thanks

Steve Beard

300 F

Delaware,Ohio

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

--
For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylang
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Chrysler 300 Club International" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to chrysler-300-club-international+unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/chrysler-300-club-international/6637e002.050a0220.a6b99.514aSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING%40gmr-mx.google.com.

--
For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylang
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Chrysler 300 Club International" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to chrysler-300-club-international+unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/chrysler-300-club-international/79DF5C0B-BC52-4C82-9898-EC5A8CB97207%40gradyresearch.com.

--
For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylang
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Chrysler 300 Club International" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to chrysler-300-club-international+unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/chrysler-300-club-international/CABYqBVrF1h%3DFnY2rpiOp1ohAVb_-grXasmJWhV2KfyW3L%3Dj6Lw%40mail.gmail.com.

--
For archives go to http://www.forwardlook.net/300-archive/search.htm#querylang
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Chrysler 300 Club International" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to chrysler-300-club-international+unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/chrysler-300-club-international/CH2PR06MB658175B56701DE0C2FED86BDC31C2%40CH2PR06MB6581.namprd06.prod.outlook.com.