RE: {Chrysler 300} Possible 56 B project for sale in California

Nobody like a smart ass 😊

From: Bob Podstawski <bobp8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2022 16:34
To: James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; John Nowosacki <jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx>; Ron Waters <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx>; jwheath68 <jwheath68@xxxxxxxxx>; chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Possible 56 B project for sale in California

Break even? Plz explain this foreign term…😆

On Dec 24, 2022, at 7:30 PM, 'James Douglas' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

John,

The 300K convertible I picked in LA in the 1980’s turned out to be a PA car with rust. It took a lot to get it good. Not great, but good.

Since those days I have done two Jaguar E-Types. Both cars acid dipped and a full body reconstruction. The amount of time and money on those is staggering. My lead work skills are now quite good after those two.

My 1962 Corvette had been in an accident, and they had heated the frame and pulled it straight on the front. I ended up getting the front of a frame from Chicago and rebuilding it. Again, a PITA.

I have learned my lessons.

My point on responding to this thread is that A LOT of people who may be reading this may well be new to the hobby. For them I think it is incumbent on us with experience to point out pitfalls and cautions that they may not know about.

You or I would look over the car with an experienced eye.

My whole point is to point out to folks like that that sometimes what looks easy is not and what look expensive may be a good deal.

The latest 300K is a case in point. It needs a lot of TLC, but the body is in such good shape for an early 1960 uni-body that I would not have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes. By the time I am done with it, I will have perhaps $20K into and a very nice driver. If I could have purchased a good sedan with a big trunk I would have. But everything new that I liked was in the $50K to $100K range. Even if I put $30K or $40K into the 300K and eat the fuel prices…I will not hit the break even point where the new car is “cheaper to drive” until I am 90!

Best, James

From: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2022 10:26
To: James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: John Nowosacki <jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx>; Bob Podstawski <bobp8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Ron Waters <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx>; jwheath68 <jwheath68@xxxxxxxxx>; chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Possible 56 B project for sale in California

An observation , or two , after doing 15-20 of these cars .. since 1970 .

It costs exactly the SAME , if you are really going to do it right ( paint , interior and driveline) to do a rough one , as it does a 70 % good 20 footer that has been “ restored” Think about that .—might save you 30-40k.

So decide where you are going day one .

So if really going for close to perfect or a 90% and repainted driver find a complete unmolested rough one cheap . You thereby also avoid the unbelievably clueless hidden damage done by lame attempts at fixing many small things so common in a 20 footer — that you pay 2-3x as much for. . Been there too many times . Watch for burned harness hanging wires…

The only big caveat is avoid rust like the plague .

Even if “ fixed” , that rust fix is temporary .

Exception to that may be a rare high end 300 (Gauguin red 300C convert ) .

In that case despite huge amount of body off frame , full body rebuild , we found frame is often shot at rear wheel kick up . Trying to fix that with weld on section is a joke as rust is exactly where you would weld, at bottom of frame box — the part you need strong . Can’t weld to rust . Charging frame is big stuff .

Try to find a 57-58 convert X frame … Rust may thus cost you 20-30k more , an lot of aggravation, and a lot of time . The body rust does mean other places rust . Look very carefully .

Might have been cheaper to just buy one , but to James’ point , I know this car in and out . I am ok with way it went . Now rust free .

Even more so on unibody , “new rockers “ in an F or G does not fix often equally rusted structure behind the rockers integral to unibody car safety . “ new rockers” on those run up a red flag to me . May be ok , but ? Look for that factory groove at rear of rocker . Where it came from matters , I can laugh now but pretty cars from say Minnesota area will usually have smooth bondo over that rocker joint ,and are often missing the inner rocker center section completely , ( look behind ) whereas Nevada cars will have intact grey primer underneath .and lots of rock chips but often original paint . They may look a lot worse ,baked out inside , chipped, but they are the jewels.

Not advocating any approach , just observed info . I’d add the engines are often rebuilt when not needed to be rebuilt ( Jerry Kocur got 300- 350 k twice out of his 300K B blocks) , hemi were legendary for 200k + . Machine shops can ruin a good engine . For instance grinding crank in a C 300 to D removes a very special induction hardening — only 300 and marine had in their hemi . But first thing machine shop wants is grind it .010 , bore it etc etc

Smoke , lifter clicks, skips , one low cylinder etc are often cured by mobil one , new filter and 50 miles at 90 . New valve cover gaskets , let’s you look in to see ..

Just sayin, from positive experience 4-5 times…nothing to lose . Intermediate step is a new timing chain , they all stretch .

These engines are real premium pieces , I doubt a machine shop can match original, unless an exceptional place with proven following and proven racing success . And I have had damage done , followed by long sad stories

One thing to do is rebuild the iron trans by Don , a known erratic hassle spot . Most have been messed with inside several times over the past 50 years .Non 300 parts are inside Aamco rebuilds .

ReNu or new gas tank , add external large stainless metal mesh filter at tank , get rid of sock . New fuel pump , not NOS . ( ethanol) Be sure generator and starter / alternator brushes are free to slide, clean the guides they sit in . That stuck brush syndrome from storage , or bearings — are what causes troubles . Silicone brake fluid .

Hope it helps ,,my .02 ..

J

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 24, 2022, at 11:21 AM, 'James Douglas' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

John,

I do not fundamentally disagree with your comments. I have driven a 1947 Desoto long wheelbase Suburban as my daily driver for 22 years. We do not own a modern car. I have had cars that are show car and cars that are drivers. In fact, I like having both a concourse car and a daily driver. I part my ’47 all around town in San Francisco on an ongoing basis. I do not part the concourse ’47 Desoto on the street here in San Francisco.

But that is not my point.

The price to buy a car like that “B” for sale is a false utility. A would bet with a few months of work one could find a good driver or a sitting in a garage “B” that is very tired for $15k to $20K and all there. Just the difference in the costs of finding the parts for the “B” in the ad may well make up that difference and you would have all the little parts like nuts and bolts plus the important knowledge of how they come apart.

Over the decades I have seen way too many people buy cars like this thinking that they could do even a good driver car over time, only to see them dump a lot of money into it and never finish it. A cool look at the condition-cost of a car often shows that spending even a little more up front on a better candidate often yields a less overall cost in the end.

If the point is to do a car on a tight budget the very first thing to do is to make sure you get the right candidate at a good price.

James

From: John Nowosacki <jsnowosacki@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2022 05:58
To: Bob Podstawski <bobp8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx>; Ron Waters <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx>; jwheath68 <jwheath68@xxxxxxxxx>; chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: {Chrysler 300} Possible 56 B project for sale in California

At the end of the day, it all comes down to what you want/can afford. I don't possess the skill set or $$$ to do 'high quality' restorations, but I can /have in the past done nice driver quality 'cruise night' cars that I'm not afraid to drive long distances and enjoy out on the road. I've brought back some dead puppies that are still on the road today in the hands of new/different owners. I'm not sure I could enjoy owning a car that I was afraid to approach or have others approach at a public cruise night. I generally arrive at a show/cruise and get out of my car, lift the hood, and walk away to go look at all the other cars. I wouldn't want to have to 'stand guard' all night protecting my car from potential finger prints. I fully appreciate a high quality restoration and the skill and time involved. That last 20% takes as much time and money as the first 80%, but that's about the time I choose to get in and drive as opposed to chasing down the very last details. I have also gone another route, which is to buy low mileage and original condition cars that have never been apart/restored and simply maintained/preserved them as needed, which is also rewarding in its own way. Plenty of room in the hobby for a wide spectrum of owners. To each his own.

On Fri, Dec 23, 2022 at 3:28 PM Bob Podstawski <bobp8@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Always buy one “done” with minor issues to be corrected otherwise you’re really perfecting the car for the next owner at your expense

On Dec 23, 2022, at 2:12 PM, 'James Douglas' via Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Ron,

I would say that 90% of the people who buy such a car and buying it as they “think” they can do it cheaper than just going out and buying one done. It is not about making money. It is about not wasting money.

One can go find a good, not restored, unit for something like $25K to $35K that is all there. If one looks really hard they may find one that has never been messed with much. If the point is to do a restoration and enjoy the pride of ownership, then start with a much better and cost-effective core.

I do not buy cars for their future sales value, but I also do not want to waste money either.

Case in point. I went looking for a 1958 to 1959 Chrysler or Desoto 4 door hard top or a 1958 to 1952 Imperial. I spent 24 months looking. I must have looked at a dozen cars. Most were either junk or overpriced for what was there. Many had recent, last 10 years, paint jobs with zero documentation as to the body condition. People just asked that I take on faith what was under it. In the camera age that is crap.

I looked and passed and looked and pasted. The recent ’64 300K purchase is a case in point. If one is willing to wait and very good core can be found at a fair price. Instead of a 4 door hard top, I ended up with a 2-door hardtop. Flexibility on year make and model for the right car is not a bad thing.

Cars like the one in the link are as I said honey pots. They look good to people who have never done a car, but they are bad values in both time and money.

I spent about 5 years, around 3000-man hours, restoring my ’49 Desoto convertible. It will never be worth what I spent on it. But since it has a connection to my childhood, I did not care. But even doing all the work myself, a true down to the smallest part restoration, I have about $60K to $80K into it not including my labor. Just the cost of materials, machine shop, paint and upholstery. I have several friends who has have the same experiences in the last 10 years. We joke that a desirable convertible to a grocery 4 door sedan all cost the same to a restoration on. Better to spend the time and money on a convertible…

If someone does not have the resources and want a car to tinker with, then a car such as the one in the link is fine. But anyone going down thar path should not kid themselves on the time and money involved if they want a true restoration.

James

From: Ron Waters <ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 10:52
To: James Douglas <jdd@xxxxxxxxxx>; 'jwheath68' <jwheath68@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: {Chrysler 300} Possible 56 B project for sale in California

>Given the fact that the average selling price of a 300B is about $50K and a concourse on is up for auction for $100K, why would anyone bother?

Well, for some people this is a hobby. So they don't care if the car is worth 50K, 75K or 99¢. It's pride of workmanship. And as a bonus, when you're finished, you can drive it around town or cross country.

If people are looking for a profitable investment, buy real estate.

Happy Holidays,

Ron

From: 'James Douglas' via Chrysler 300 Club International [mailto:chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2022 1:35 PM
To: jwheath68; Chrysler 300 Club International
Subject: RE: {Chrysler 300} Possible 56 B project for sale in California

I really wonder about cars like this.

It has been so taken apart that just finding all the correct nuts and bolts may become an issue. Very few people actually bag and tag everything. Even those that do still inevitable loose a few things.

Even if 90% of the chrome has been redone, and who knows if it was done well, that last 10% can cost a lot to find and then plate and then the plating may not match.

The body has primer and has sat for years meaning that rust can get under the primer. The entire car has to be blasted to bare metal just to see what is under it.

There is no way to restore this car for less than about $75K and that is if one does all the work except the final paint and upholstery themselves.

Given the fact that the average selling price of a 300B is about $50K and a concourse on is up for auction for $100K, why would anyone bother?

Cars like this are honey traps for people who do not know any better.

My 2 cents worth.

James

From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of jwheath68
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 10:55
To: Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: {Chrysler 300} Possible 56 B project for sale in California

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/7565451242.html

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