Re: [Chrysler300] Hard Starting 55 C300

Hi Dan, just some EE here; the output of an electric motor is set by the volume of the windings, so “rewinding to get more output” for the same duty cycle is not physically possible. However they may put heavier wire in, but that is going to be fewer turns (same winding space restricts that) you end up with a lower nominal volt starter, of the same power, still has same “rated” watts (or HP) out as before ..unless you beat it up by using same prior voltage which makes windings get really hot and burn up, as heat goes as the square of current, and 6v will force 1.5 x more current into a 4 v winding. . Which means heat per unit area of copper will go up, if you run your now 4 V starter on 6 volts. And brushes etc all overloaded. Not much room. Just saying… But might get away with it, if no long cranking spell.

Probably best tech , but not aesthetic/ appearance solution-- if keeping car 6 volts ---is the old 6/12 relay that Whitney once sold, 2 - 6v batteries, , one on each side? …. Or 12v period.

But 6 V is good and works if all is correct inside starter motor. . Short heavy leads help. Which might mean stock 6 v rebuilt starter not souped up in any way, just new brushes and brush springs, cleaned up commutator, mica below copper . After all , millions and millions of cars started every day all winter in Minnesota on 6V from the 20’s to the 50’s. It works fine. While on this, someone mentioned 6V pertronics. Conceptually that is a can of worms, as a transistor switch drops 1 volt, you only have 6, and energy in spark goes as square of volts on coil too. 25 compared to 36 ratio of spark strength loss not so good, = keep the points at 6 V.

Also got into this on Studebakers, where a few people had gotten away with , and recommended just use 6V starter on 12v; But what happens there is it hits flywheel so hard it can break tooth off, as about 4 X the torque (man does it crank! ) (old small 6 cylinders) ; big redesign by them in ~56 when they went to 12v on flathead six involving different ring gear count , flywheel, pinion and starter .

I remember vividly GM (olds) V8’s of early fifties developed stretched timing chains, which drastically slowed down cranking , (not sure why, but it did? Late valve action? ) , and I remember putting a 6/12 Whitney deal in a friend’s ? 50 Olds. Sort of started it, but problem in engine remains. The point being a high mileage hemi might need a new timing chain .

The starter in question may have been on last legs, but really on a DC motor, all that really goes , wear wise, if windings are intact are the brushes and the springs pushing them, --leads to burned / dirty commutator bars--(forgetting obvious bearing failures) ; so a “more powerful starter” if of the old style will have to be a larger, heavier or longer starter. I learned about that here on forum , where 300F has a heavier (larger) starter, several sizes interchange, were used in 60 Chrysler, I did not know that. My car had a wrong one. . But experience with 6V Packards , 1937, they crank like a 12v car, big starters well done. New design “small” hi performance starters use permanent magnets and significant gearing down within the starter, a better way to get at this, but I do not think made for 6 V. . Might be worth a try….And then you have the Ford flathead guys with the 8 v setup…

Just don’t want someone to be parted from a lot of $ without understanding the trades here.

John G

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Dan300f dan300f@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 5:57 PM
To: french_fryguy@xxxxxxxxx; ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; c300@xxxxxxx
Subject: [Chrysler300] Hard Starting 55 C300

Hi all:

If hard starting is a problem and the starter seems to be working overtime, then besides installing a heavier cable, perhaps the starter itself needs a little extra muscle. About 40 years ago, I invented and patented a 4 cyl. 2-stroke engine. I designed it with a compression ratio of 17:1 as I was going to feed the cylinders with a very lean fuel mixture. None of the starters I tried could turn the engine over so I had a shop put a few more windings on it. The extra power I got from the starter really made the engine spin. I never had a problem after that. None of my test runnings exceeded 4,000 rpm's as I was afraid of it flying apart. I proved that one could run an engine on gasoline and a 17:1 compression ratio. At 4,000 rpm, the exhaust (no exhaust pipes or muffler) was no hotter than blowing breath against your hand in front of your mouth. We even had it in a car for test driving. But, the engine is now a $40,000 boat anchor sitting in my garage because all the companies that my rep contacted had basically the same comment as Ford, i.e., "Not invented here."

So, if I had a car with a 6-volt system, I would certainly have my starter reworked.

Good luck.

Dan Reitz

Bell Canyon, CA

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In a message dated 6/26/2019 6:48:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

For years I was plagued with starting problems in my 6 volt cars. My longtime friend Ken Brody finally convinced me to let him work on our C300 and I did.

What changes were made is the starter was checked for proper voltage going through it. Correct heavy battery cables were installed, the distributor was set up on a machine and from that time forward the issues went away.

6 volt systems for Chrysler were at the end of the road by 1955 due to the demand being put on them and I'm convinced that this is part of the reason by 1956 they went to 12 volts. Ford did the same and you must remember that GM was using 12 volts on some examples, Caddy and Nail Head Buicks, back in 1953. By 1955 their entire line was 12 volt.

I've tried using Pertronix Ignitors on 6 volt Chryslers without much luck. According to a source at Pertronix the voltage is just to marginal unless the system is basically perfect. On 12 volt cars they work great and I use them but stay with points for 6 volt systems.

I am a believer in an auxiliary electric pump for priming during starts. Mine are on a separate switch so that I don't have to use the ignition turned on while priming. Once you hear the sound change in the pump as it is working then crank the car and pump the gas a couple of times and it will start and then be sure to turn the pump off.

You can purchase a 6 volt pump through Summit Racing in the $30 range and it is worth every penny. The instructions with the pump I got were for a negative ground system so you need to reverse the wires. I also install a changeable inline fuel filter just forward of the pump. As previously pointed out check your oil regularly due to the fact that if the factory diaphragm develops problems the electric pump will push fuel into the crankcase and can wash out engine bearings. Gas in Southern California is really bad for destroying diaphragms with all of the garbage they add in and I have a collection of fuel pumps to back this up.

One last problem I've encountered are the ceramic fuel filter elements. They can look fine but will sometimes not allow the fuel to flow into the carbs at a proper rate. When the engine is running look closely at them and if you see any kind of bubbles there could by blockage. The easy way to check this is remove the element and start and run the engine. Be careful not to crack the glass bowl when installing them and make sure your rubber seal is good where the glass meets the metal top. You can replace the element if you can find them but if you use a replaceable filter down by the electric pump I see no need. If you experience heat saturation with the engine and it won't fire on a restart hold the pedal to the floor and crank. It should start.....

John Lazenby

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, 10:14:16 PM PDT, 'Rich Barber' c300@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300] <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Carbs are heated with exhaust and are unvented. I’m convinced that between boiling away the fuel in the bowls and/or the fuel syphoning from the carb and gravity draining back to the tank through the mechanical fuel pump that there is no fuel in the carbs until all the air is pumped through the pump, some fuel is sucked from the tank and enough gets in the still-hot bowls to feed the bulldog. Electric fuel pump back by the tank enables priming the carbs. One can hear the pump pitch change when the bowls are full and the float valve close. One pump and crank. There are various ways to wire the pump—for starting only, continuous & etc. Must watch for diaphragm failure—nearly as bad in a car as elsewhere. Raw gas goes into the crankcase.

That said, starter problems get worse when they are hot, also. Some days, six Volts just does not cut it.

Rich Barber
Brentwood, CA

From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>On Behalf Of 'Ron Waters' ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 8:02 PM
To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Chrysler300] Hard Starting 55 C300

In this month's 300 Club News, Narve talks about his problems with hot starting his C300. Do any other C300 owners have similar problems ? I would think this is caused by a starter needing a rebuild, old wiring creating resistance, or a carb needing attention.

Any thoughts ?

Ron

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Posted by: Rick Haynes <rdr_inc@xxxxxxxxxx>

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