RE: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside radiator
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RE: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside radiator
- From: "'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]" <Chrysler300-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 12:36:15 -0400
Exactly right, on every comment Ray..
I would have expected a leak at the radiator entry , too, but maybe the
fitting is sealed by copper washers or such and so can rotate to the inside
; I think they are sometimes soldered but do not know that about ours --some
radiators are; the point of it being very thin brass inside (if it is)
means maybe only a slight tweak is all to takes to snap or crack it inside
at the fitting . Even worse maybe the leak in fact happened to the outside
and they then resoldered it to the tank to fix the leak caused by over
tightening it. .Or if washers , it just turned the whole fitting without a
drop showing outside . Why opening it and have YOU look is so critical . it
really is important. Thank you for following up!!
I think as someone said, it IS a single U of light wall pipe inside. One
possible design is that the U has shoulders or internal nut at the tank
wall, put into tank from inside, then a seal washer and nut is screwed on
from outside the tank, then the flare nut, all on same thread. ; in that
case, over tightening it breaks it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Melton [mailto:rfmelton@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2016 12:08 PM
To: David Schwandt; 'John Grady'; Chrysler 300 Club, Int'l; 'Chrysler 300
Club, Int'l'
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside radiator
The new stainless steel lines from the transmission into and out of the
radiator were installed by one of the mechanics at the shop doing the
restoration. The mechanic most likely to have done that no longer works
there (it's a small, 1-1/2 man shop). But you're right, it will be VERY
interesting to see what is the nature of the internal rupture! And also
worth pointing out specifically the need for extra care (appropriate torque
- not gorilla! - and a backup wrench if applicable) when the (re)-rebuilt
radiator is reinstalled. Although I think if the tube going into the
radiator were twisted upon installation, I would think the failure would
have been at the radiator tank shell joint, leading to an EXTERNAL rupture
rather than internal.
Ray Melton
On 6/8/2016 12:54 PM, David Schwandt wrote:
> That would be my best guess as to what happened.
> Who did the install of the tube to the rad??
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of 'John Grady' jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 12:52 PM
> To: 'David Schwandt'; 'Ron Waters'; 'Chrysler 300 Club, Int'l'; 'Ray
Melton'
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside
> radiator
>
> It must be thin wall, ?? made of brass. Probably thinner wall than
> sink tail pipe ? What if you twisted the fitting......the 90 bend is
> very stiff in that resisting twist direction. Small twist might break it
at fitting.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of 'David Schwandt' finsruskw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2016 8:33 AM
> To: 'Ron Waters'; 'Chrysler 300 Club, Int'l'; 'Ray Melton'
> Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside
> radiator
>
> Nothing hi-tech about the cooler in side the bottom of the Ra.
>
> Basically just a pipe w/2 short legs at a 90* and fittings for the
> tubing is all.
>
> From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of 'Ron Waters' ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2016 9:55 PM
> To: Chrysler 300 Club, Int'l; Ray Melton
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside
> radiator
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ray -
>
>
>
> 1. I think the shop that 'rebuilt' your radiator owes you some money.
>
>
>
> 2. Follow my procedure for cleansing the cooling system. Introducing
> foreign chemicals, such as Simple Green, etc., into the engine and
> cooling system is a bad idea. Residue from these chemicals may have a
> disasterous effect on your engine, radiator, etc. Don't do it.
>
>
>
> 3. I've never taken apart a radiator/tranny cooler. So I can't say if
> your visualization is correct or not. You'll know what happened when
> the radiator shop opens things up.
>
>
>
> 4. Take the desiccant out of the pan. You don't need it and it may
> leave residue. Again, a bad thing.
>
>
>
> 5. Redline WaterWetter - A magic nostrum. Worthless. Here's a review
> of the
> stuff:
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/01/redline-waterwetter%C2%AE-rev
> iew/
>
>
>
> Ron
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ray Melton <mailto:rfmelton@xxxxxxx>
>
> To: Ron Waters <mailto:ronbo97@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; Chrysler 300 Club,
> Int'l <mailto:chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2016 9:49 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside
> radiator
>
>
>
> Hi Ron -
>
> Thanks for your thoughts. I have never seen what's inside my
> radiator, especially at the bottom where the transmission oil cooling
function occurs.
> I pictured a labyrinth of tubing in the bottom "tank" of the radiator,
> where the tubing is exposed to the relatively cooler water in the
> radiator, just before the coolant is discharged out the bottom. And I
> pictured that the rupture would have occurred in some portion of the
> tubing, leading to transmission fluid leakage into the coolant while
> the transmission is operating and those lines were pressurized. Or is
> my visualization incorrect?
>
> The radiator had been rebuilt less than one hour operating time before
> this event, although I have no idea what they did inside, especially
> at the bottom. They may not have even looked at that part of the
> radiator! So, the radiator is coming out and going to the
> (supposedly) best place in town, and I want to watch just what they
> are doing every step of the way! I may even ask if they can rebuild
> it to a 4-core configuration instead of the stock 3-core version. And
> of course, I'll be especially interested in seeing what goes on in that
bottom tank with the transmission cooling lines.
>
>
> After draining everything from the transmission pan, we put a blow-gun
> all over every tranny part accessible with the pan removed, (including
> valve body and now-empty torque converter), and then we even put a
> big desiccant bag in the bottom of the pan where the filter used to
> reside, closed it up and left it there for two days. Also blew out
> the new stainless lines from the transmission forward to the radiator.
>
> Next plan for cooling system after rebuilt radiator (top, middle and
> bottom!) is reinstalled: we will put some degreaser (Awesome, Simple
> Green, Purple Power, etc.) into the radiator water while we begin the
> transmission refill process. Then run it for a couple of hot/cold
> cycles, then drain out the transmission fluid. Rinse and repeat.
> Plan to fill and drain the transmission at least twice to flush out
> any residual water. Also plan to fill and drain the radiator (and
> entire cooling system as best we can) at least twice, leaving heater
> in "ON" position to get everything out of there, too. Finally, refill
> radiator ith conventional 50/50 green antifreeze (plus Redline
> WaterWetter) and keep and eye on everything from temperature to
> possible pink oily slime on top of radiator water! Change again if
necessary.
>
> Then, just cross fingers (arms, legs, toes and eyes, too!) and hope
> the brief exposure to water (with EvapoRust) did not damage anything
> inside the zero-hour rebuilt transmission!
>
> I will keep the membership posted on the progress (success or failure)
> of this miserable problem!
>
> Ray Melton
>
> 1957 300C convert
>
> Las Cruces, NM (575)642-3151
>
> **********************************************************************
> ******
> *********************************
>
> On 6/7/2016 6:04 AM, Ron Waters wrote:
>
> Ray -
>
>
>
> Job One would be to have a quality radiator shop rebuild your radiator.
> There is a breech between the cooling tank on the bottom and the
> radiator core itself. Your radiator is toast. Be sure to get a warranty as
well.
>
>
>
> There is no need to jury rig auxiliary tranny coolers, etc. Once you
> have a new radiator, the system will work as expected.
>
>
>
> Removal of coolant from transmission: I would drop the pan and let all
> fluid drain out. Also drain out the torque converter. Let everything
> drain for a while. Then refill with fresh tranny fluid. You may want
> to work the car through the gears a few times. Then shut engine off
> and drain the tranny again. Then refill with fresh fluid again.
>
>
>
> Removal of tranny fluid from coolant: Drain out cooling system, which
> may include heater core if that was connected to the system. Add a
> weak solution of coolant and water (I wouldn't run pure water thru the
> engine). Get engine up to operating temperature. Then cool down and
> drain cooling system. Refill with fresh coolant 50/50 mix and you should
be in good shape.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ray Melton rfmelton@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
> <mailto:rfmelton@xxxxxxx%20[Chrysler300]>
>
> To: chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 6:15 PM
>
> Subject: [Chrysler300] Transmission cooling line failure inside
> radiator
>
>
>
> I have transmission fluid contaminating the cooling system, and water
> contaminating the fluid in the transmission! Seeking Advice. How to
> decontaminate transmission and entire cooling system.
>
> Description of problem: After manually refilling the Type F fluid (about
> 10 quarts) in the newly rebuilt Torqueflite in my 1957 300C, we came
> back the next morning to find a big pool of water and transmission
> fluid under the car! They removed the transmission pan, which let out
> a considerable amount of water and oil mix. The Torque converter was
completely drained.
> There were remnants of pink oil visible on the cooling passages when
> the radiator cap was removed. The radiator was drained of the
> remaining oil and water mixture.
>
> It was quickly concluded that the tubing for transmission fluid at the
> bottom of the radiator had ruptured internally while the engine was
> being run to perform the fluid fill process, pumping high-pressure
> pink fluid into the radiator water while running. But after shutting
> down for the night, the heavier water pushed back through the (now
> unpressurized) ruptured oil cooler line inside the radiator, which
> eventually pushed oil and water out some overflow location near the back
end of the transmission.
>
> The transmission was being run in Neutral, Drive and Reverse during
> the fluid fill process, so we were unwittingly getting some water back
> into the ruptured oil line as soon as the engine was shut down and the
> transmission coolant line pressure went to zero. Then as soon as the
> engine was restarted, we were pumping some oil into the radiator and
> also pumping some oil/water mix through the transmission.
>
> The entire cooling system (radiator, all hoses, all water passages in
> the engine block and heads, etc.) is now contaminated with at least
> some amount of transmission fluid, so I am seeking advice on how to
> best remove that oily residue. We plan to blow out the transmission
> fluid lines at the bottom of the radiator to remove as much residual
> fluid as we can, and then just cap off the inlet and outlet lines, so
> there will no longer be the original oil/water heat exchanger
> functionality. (That transmission fluid cooing aspect will be
> addressed separately)
>
> Our tentative plan is to refill the radiator with a mixture of water
> and a water-based degreaser like Simple Green, or Purple Power, then
> run the engine until it's good and warm, then drain out all the
> coolant with solvent and oily contaminant. We will probably do the
> solvent flush routine until we see no further trace evidence of
> transmission oil in the water coolant -- at least twice -- and then
> refill with distilled water and a water-based rust remover called
> Evapo-Rust to remove some of the rust that is most certainly all through
the internal coolant passages after the vehicle sat
> idle for 17 years. I was planning to run that rust-remover coolant
> combination for several hours, or at least half a dozen hot/cooldown
> cycles before going with a more permanent water and antifreeze mixture
> for everyday driving.
>
> What to you guys think of that plan to remove residual tranny oil from
> the coolant system?
>
> We plan to connect the transmission cooling lines to an external
> auxiliary oil-to-air transmission cooler that will be located in some
> open space roughly in front of the bottom of the radiator wherever it
looks like there
> might be some air circulation path. I was not planning to have any
> fan-forced airflow device, relying just on convective cooling from a
> fairly generous finned heat exchanger in whet will likely be a rather
> turbulent air flow region (but I have NO way of knowing that!) I
> don't know what temperature the transmission fluid would like to be
> when it goes back into the tranny after the cooling process, although
> I suspect it would be somewhat higher than the temperature in the
radiator, around 190 F as
> governed by the thermostat. I will have no reasonable way to tell what
the
> oil temp is when exiting the auxiliary heat exchanger, so I won't know
> if the heat exchanger is doing a good enough job. I know the air
> temperature will usually be considerably cooler than the 190-degree
> water in the radiator, but I also know that the heat exchange
> coefficient of the oil-to-air cooler is much lower than the HX
> coefficient of the original oil/water cooler system.
>
> What do you think of the oil-to-air auxiliary heat exchanger idea to
> replace the original oil-to-water system? Any thoughts or advice are
welcomed!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "David Schwandt" <finsruskw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> ------------------------------------
>
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>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> ------------------------------------
>
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------------------------------------
Posted by: "John Grady" <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
------------------------------------
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