An idea just occurred to me that wheel problems due to
radials could be as simple as the fact that they operate
at much higher pressures. Typically 35 or higher vrs the
24 which I think of for original tires. That would put a
lot of additional stress on the rim of course.
We had purchased a pair of extra wheels to use for the
snow tires on our 72 wagon many years ago and they were
not as wide as the normal rims were but we didn't realize
that and they became mixed with the other rims as time
went on and both rims had the outer edge start tearing
off---luckily no accidents occurred except that one the
first one we were on a road trip and the inner wall
started tearing and got far enough out to rub on the tie
rod producing a strange oscillation . Took a while to
figure out and then put spare on and got real scared when
I saw the torn metal ready to blow. Amazingly the tire had
not lost air yet. Must have been 3 inch wide tear.
Basically the tires used were too big for the rim being
used and put too much stress on it and we were lucky to
not be killed in an accident!! Higher pressure would seem
to be the same problem to me.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John
Grady
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 11:28 AM
To: 'Greg Leggatt'; 'Tony Rinaldi'
Cc: 'Edward Mills Antique Tractors'; 'Chrysler 300 Club'
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] New American Classic Tires
Just an observation, by an engineer, and supporting what
someone else pointed out, the twisting moment the wheel
puts on the hub (engineering sense) does not change from
bias to radials as far as I can understand; and we are not
racing, or necessarily using more grip radials might have
over and over, say in an aggressive racing corner,
resulting in more wheel loading .
The only realistic way wheels can “crack” is fatigue,
caused by bringing the metal (locally) over a certain
stress for a certain number of cycles, certainly many
millions, as load reverses at each turn of wheel , when
going around a corner,---- =stress on attachments of disc
to rim, especially if welded , or I would expect, disc
cracks near bolts .
Welds can leave small sharp gaps at edges, leading to
stress risers, and also leave a stressed zone unless heat
treated (stress relieved) after welding. So it may be
cracks are just due to 300k miles, nothing to do with
tires, except most wheels have radials on them now , so it
looks that way....as if radials ‘did it” But observed
cracks and real cause are not the tires? Cars run at speed
on curvy roads (West Virginia? Pa hills?) would then be
expected to crack much sooner than say wheels in Texas
flat country.
To counter that means use a thicker material, in general,
thus reducing peak stress in the metal , and stress
relieving fabricated steel wheels. Do we know thickness of
Stockton wheel centers, vs. stock? Relates to 300B running
Imperial wheels, too, in Nascar , which I think had 5”
pattern . And mid sixties 15” “police wheels”.
Really good info on keeping 14” hubcaps, Tony. They weld a
ring inside 15” rim?
I think I fixed up G hubcaps for 15” shod F to fix that
one time long ago. Related to bigger disc brakes.
Recently have been running 16” and 17 “ by 8” JEEP GC
style rims, with Michelin Latitude tires on 5 x 4.5 “
cragar black wheels with trim rings , about same OD as old
15” but much better handling setup. But does not look
stock. JEEP wheels do not fit our cars.
I am afraid of anything except Michelins. Just me ; Have
had sidewall blowouts, (Firestone) , unseen tread
separation, (= severe balance / out of round issues,
Cooper) , and 10k mile tire life (Goodyear Eagles) ..
Michelin go 50-60 k no problems, usually need no weights
at all.
I have also had a lot of trouble with aluminum wheel after
market lug conical nuts with those washer like fittings
coming loose ; you really have to torque perfectly and
check every few thousand. That almost got me on long trip,
two fell off the wheel ; then, suddenly as in 1000 feet
wheel started wobbling violently, third one came loose in
seconds, last two also loose . Progression is far more
rapid than you might think. And you must jack up to re
center wheel.
Best,
John Grady
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Greg
Leggatt
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 11:26 AM
To: Tony Rinaldi
Cc: Edward Mills Antique Tractors; Chrysler 300 Club
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] New American Classic Tires
Hi Tony,
Thanks for your work on this topic. My only experience
with hub piloted wheels was with one ton pickups in the
early 80's. It seemed an essential tool for demounting a
wheel was a sledge hammer!!
Greg
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 6, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Tony Rinaldi
<awrdoc@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Regarding the lug centric recommendation:
It actually references the way the wheels are balanced.
The more important caution is that older rims may crack if
used with radial tires. We have had members tell of an old
wheel cracking with radial tires and thankfully, lived to
talk about it.
"American Classic Tires
(Tire Types)
Lug centric balancing is preferred over hub centric,
because it’s more accurate to real-world driving.
Weights should be mounted on the inside of the tire in
order to protect the soft whitewall. Because of the
whitewall insert, American Classic radial tires may take 3
to 5 ounces to balance. Old wheels can often be
out-of-round, which will cause problems when it comes time
to balance the new tires. Carefully check your old rims
before mounting.
Also be aware that older rims designed for bias ply tires
may crack if used with modern radials, as the radial
places more street on the wheel."
“Been there, done that”!
There is no debating the multitude of 300 owners who still
use their original wheels and are content.
I only tried to provide a new tire option (bias ply look
radials) for some owners and what is considered
state-of-the-art recommendations and what is currently
available.
I would like to share my experience when converting my
300-F to front disc brakes with bias ply tires. An old
time mechanic, who worked on 300s at a Chrysler dealer in
the day, told me that the original wheels were “hub
centric” and the diameter of the new disc spindles were
smaller than the center hole of my old wheels. He had
rings manufactured that were wedged onto the spindles so
that the wheel would be supported on the hub.
Subsequently, I worked with the now deceased Frank Mauro,
owner of Stockton Wheel, to develop modern “lug centric
supported” 14’ wheels for 1957 & up 300s and other
Mopars to support radial tires. He also made up 15” wheels
that could use 14” hubcaps based upon Dan Reitz’s original
concept.
FYI, Stockton Wheel is open again and is still
manufacturing these wheels. The same wheel wright works
there. We currently have tire options that we did not have
in the 1990s. Many members were using under sized tires
because the 75 series tires were not available. Many of
our cars looked like “Low Riders.”
At that time, we pre ordered 100 sets of tires so that
Coker would manufacture the 235/75R14” WWW. They are no
longer made since American Classic Tire brought their new
75 series of tires out.
300’ly
Tony Rinaldi
From: Edward Mills Antique Tractors
<millserAT@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, Jan 5, 14 at Sun, Jan 5 - 9:11 PM
To: Anthony Rinaldi <awrdoc@xxxxxxxxx>, Chrysler 300
Club <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] New American Classic Tires
Tony - where did you get recommendation on Lug Centric? I
can't find any Wheel Info on American Classics Tire
website?
On 1/4/2014 3:02 PM, Tony Rinaldi wrote:
Hi To All Happy New Year,
Just opened the latest Hemmings MN Coker is advertising a
new series of American Classic radial WWW tires that have
bias ply look profiles. The American Classic Tire website
does not show them as of yet.
They seem to be geared for Cadillacs, thunderbirds
Corvettes.
Based on carnut.com "as built" specs for '55-'65 300s,
C-300, 300-B 300-G owners may benefit from the 800:R15
tires if a 3 1/4" WWW works for you.
As with American Classic 235/75R14 235/75R15 radial tires,
the white wall is an integral part of the tire. The 14" 75
series tires are for 1955-1960 unless owners opt for 15"
wheels and tires.
Diamond Classic has S rated new Michelin 235/75R15 tires
that they will put what ever size WW you want. They also
promise the 235/75R14" tires soon by their own production.
BTW, I have the 15" Michelin tires from Diamond Back
mounted on Stockton 15" wheels with the original 300-F
hubcaps. They are great and exceed all expectations. One
tire did develop "bead bubbling" of the white wall where
it sealed to the rim. I had to pay shipping one way for a
replacement WW. They did give me some grief since it they
were over 1 year old.
American Classic Tires recommends "lug centric" wheels
rather than the original "hub centric" wheels that may
flex with radials.
Stockton Wheel will make up 14" modern "lug centric"
replacement wheels or 15" that will accept 14" hub caps
for radial tires. They are for 1957-60 and 1962-65. Their
15" wheels do not match 1961 300-G perforated wheels. They
will not fit 1955-56.
Some narrow white walls are currently still available for
300-H and up.
All of this comes at a price! Hope Santa was good to you.
300,ly,
Tony Rinaldi
300-F Conv't
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