Re: [Chrysler300] Fwd: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation

[Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx>]

I've been watching this discussion with interest.
I sent my H carbs to the late George Riehl a couple of years ago to be rebuilt.
He returned them, saying they didn't need rebuilding, they just needed an accel pump caused by the leather sticking to the wall and me pumping the accel pedal to start while dry. 

I installed an electric fuel pump to save wear on the starter, but one advantage of cranking the engine for so long before firing is that it starts with well lubricated bearings and oil pressure is up..
My car has always been hard to start if it sat very long. 
George attributed that to the volatility of the gasoline we use today.
  
On Mar 25, 2013, at 7:14 AM, "C Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

And here's a response from a gentleman named George McCollam in the Imperial 
Club in disagreement with Steve's response about pumping the pedal with a 
dried out carb. You guys do what you want. I will go by experience from 
the school of hard knocks. And I'm not talking about the car sitting for 
only a week. I'm talking about sitting for 4-6 months or more which can 
happen in northlands of the U.S. because the winters are long, and I'm 
talking about owners who just jump in the car and pump the pedal about 10 
times thinking that is the proper way to start the car. We have a lot of 
knowledge in the club and different experiences and opinions are helpful to 
all.

Carl B.

Hello All: Imperialists
OK, where to start.....?
First we probably should not "parse" words...(ie. stretch") that said....
The word used to describe this situation " stretched" is used in many tech
reports on carbs. This is how it works.... fuel is in the carb, the
leather gasket on the accelerator pump is wet, all is good so you can pump
away. But when the fuel leaves for any reason, it leaves behind a residue.
Old school term would be shellac, new school term is "crap gas being sold
to all of us". This is a glue that causes the leather gasket on the
accelerator pump to stick to the sides of the pump chamber. SO... it is now
dry and glued to the walls. along comes "happy driver", who, jumps in the
driver seat and what is the first thing that "happy driver" does????...
pumps the accelerator .... well why?.... to set the choke of course. So,
now the stuck gasket is "stretched". Pulled apart and is on its way to
being damaged.
This is exactly correct for 1960 when we had real gasoline, that did not
stick like today's gas. But today when we have "crap gas" it is a No,No.
The only way to un-stick the stuck gasket is to wet the chamber first.
to do this is to.... NOT touch the accelerator at all.
So, without touching the accelerator pedal , crank the engine for a very
long count of thirty (30 seconds) Yes it is a long time . Then stop wait a
moment for the fuel that is now in the carb to soak into the accelerator
pump gasket Then press the accelerator to the floor hard to set the choke,
stop a moment Now lightly touch the accelerator and start the Imperial
normally. Guess what it started right up.
And yes it took about 3 minutes, but if you don't do it it won't ever
start.
I've spent more than 50 years playing with carbs, all kinds from exotic to
my neighbors mower, if I have learned anything it is that fuel injection
is the answer. But it is not the answer for our classics, which we must
preserve at all costs, 'cause if we don't who will..
.... Nuff Said....
George w/ the '55 & '56 Crown Imperial limousines

-----Original Message----- 
From: Steve Albu
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 12:01 AM
To: retromobilia@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Chrysler300 ; bob hayen Chrysler 300F
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Fwd: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation

Pumping the throttle with a dry carburetor due to a long period of storage
where the fuel has evaporated (usually more than a week for this to happen)
should not affect the accelerator pump at all. That has never been a
problem for me and as the previous post stated, the leather tends to shrink
up slightly and in no way should be destroyed from pumping the throttle
with the bowl dry.
If the car takes a long time to start after a hot soak, and the time
required to crank the engine is more than 10 seconds, then something else
is wrong, perhaps the carburetor is leaking internally. I really doubt that
with a fuel vent present, the fuel would flood the engine, unless the vent
cap/lever were misadjusted to not let the vent actually vent when the
engine is turned off with the throttle closed. And I also doubt the bowl
would be empty after 3 hours of sittling during a hot soak. I live in
California where we have routine high temperatures and the junk ethanol
(E10) gasoline for some time now and do not have these issues.
The only issues I do have are related to E10 fuel going bad after some 6
months or more of sitting or not being changed out. With this junk fuel,
varnish tends to form in the carburetor and plugs the needle and seats of
the floats so they either do not open when cranking the engine or they are
stuck open thus flooding the engine and potentially leading to hydrostatic
lock and damage to the engine if it is not shut off quickly after realizing
this is happening (runs rough and won't clear out immediately). Also, the
check valve in the accelerator pump will also stick, so that the needed
fuel squirt into the intake manifold will not happen, so the engine will
not start when cold. After sitting some time with the carburetor bowls dry,
just cranking an engine without a fuel pump shot of fuel will usually not
allow the engine to start. The off idle and main circuits do not provide
enough fuel by themselves to enable a cold engine to start without a pump
shot even with the choke nearly closed. To address these issuess, I am
trying using fuel preservatives such as Stabil or Starbrite or Lucas and a
two cycle oil used in small quantities that has the T3 WC rating to see if
I can avoid these varnish related problems. Stabil claims it will keep E10
gasoline good for up to a year while Starbite claims more like 3 years. The
small engine and motorcycle folks seems to be having good results with
these additives at least and are gravitating to the Starbrite additive with
the specified two stroke oil. I will see......................
Steve Albu

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 1:32 PM, <retromobilia@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> **
>
>
> any comments on this Chrysler info.
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: "C Bilter" <cbilter@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: Imperial-Club@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 12:07:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation
>
> This is what I was taught by a long time Mopar expert many years ago. I
> don?t know if ?stretch? is the proper term or not; perhaps someone who
> knows more about carbs can weigh in. But I have seen the effects of 
> pumping
> a dry carb and it ruins the pump.
>
> From: Danno
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:49 PM
> To: Imperial-Club@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation
>
> How does the accelerator pump leather get stretched? I don't understand
> how pumping would stretch the leather on the accelerator pump. If it were
> dry it would tend to be shrunk down some and have less pressure on the
> walls of the pump well, but even if it wasn't shrunk I don't see how the
> pump piston simply moving up and down in the pump well would stretch the
> leather.
>
> Danno
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: C Bilter
> To: mailto:Imperial-Club%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 9:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Imperial-Club] Ethanol evaporation
>
> I would exercise some caution about ?pumping? the accelerator pedal with a
> dry carb after a dry winter of sitting. After a few months of sitting, 
> most
> if not all of the fuel in the carb has evaporated, and probably much or
> most of the fuel in the fuel filter and line to the carb. If you have the
> leather-type accelerator pump in the carb (pre-late 70?s), it will be dry.
> Pumping will stretch the dry leather and will quickly ruin the accelerator
> pump. I have seen many cars where this has happened. If you have a 
> properly
> working fuel pump then all you should need to do is carefully manually set
> the choke closed by hand under the hood, and crank the engine in several
> increments of 15 seconds or so. This will draw fuel up through the system
> and it also builds oil pressure. The car likely will start without any
> pumping if everything is in tune, but after cranking some you can pump the
> pedal once or twice if necessary to hasten starting. Anyway, this 
> procedure
> dramatically increases the longevity of the accelerator pump.
>
> As discussed earlier, some folks just pour some gas in the bowls to hasten
> starting (but you might get clattering lifters at first due to low oil
> pressure), and some folks use an electric fuel pump to draw the fuel up
> after sitting a long time to avoid the cranking and battery drain. The
> electric fuel pumps are especially handy on the crossram 300s which have
> dual four bbl carbs that both need gas.
>
> Carl B
> 





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