Re: [Chrysler300] Gas Chemistry

["Roger Schaaf" <obiwan10@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

It is easy to pass the buck to the Feds for MTBE.  Seems like Calyfornu has
Congressman and Senators(like Feinstein and Boxer) who were in on this
stupidity of pushing ahead on an unproven untested solution in order to do
something such as the Federal Oxygenate Requirement for gasoline..  Now this
fiasco has cost everyone a few billion dollars, we now will try ethanol.
And when it fails we will try something else, like the multi-billion dollar
electric car solution.  Oh yes, let us not forget Global Warming that will
cost more in dollars then all of these other "solutions" put together.  And
on a unproven science(it is still all theory no matter what some miscreants
will claim--such as the claim that George Bush is responsible for the
failure of the Moronic Kyoto Treaty--the US Senate voted like 99 to 1
against it and Clinton was against it--only tree-hugger Gore was fur it)
that has been promoted by another environmental constituency.  How much
longer can we afford the nonsense of these people.

Why were diesels excluded from smog laws to begin with.  Why do gas guzzler
cars pay a huge gas guzzler tax, but my neighbor in his Hummer or Expedition
pay nothing.  Some wag once said that "government is to important to be in
the hands of politicians".  This guy should be King.  How much does each of
these Pzev's cost?  Oh yes they cost no more.  The facts are that the
manufactures lose massive dollars on each one of them sold.  Someone pays
for this.  Perhaps in the price of the new car you buy that subsidizes these
other agendas?!

Public opinion still is massively populated by those who do not know that
the Earth revolves around the sun or even that the Earth is not flat.  Some
would call democracy the tyranny of the majority.  In many cases, I think
they are correct.

Steve much of what you say is correct, relevant and is of value. And much
progress has been made in reducing pollution from industries and vehicles.
But a moderate view would of accomplished 90 percent at perhaps 20 percent
of the costs. The extremist views is what I and others protest.  These views
cost billions of dollars to no good end.  Our roads are decaying, our
schools are failing, our health care does not protect all and we are
spending our resources on the agendas of organizations of extremist groups
such as the Sierra Club, Ralph Nader and others of their ilk.  I think that
we can do better.

Roger Schaaf
Exempt 300 B California


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <smopar@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Gas Chemistry


>
>  Federal law requires California to achieve healthful air quality by 2010.
That is what drives the ARB.  MTBE was a result of a federal oxygenate
requirement for gasoline.  ARB has petitioned the EPA repeatedly to drop the
oxygenate requirement because we don't need it in our gasoline since ARB
data shows it doesn't help.  Thank the midwest ethanol contingent and their
political clout for the waiver being denied multiple times.  And MTBE would
not have been the groundwater problem that it became if fueling station
gasoline tanks didn't leak.  As for electric cars, they were a course that
was pursued as a small requirement in the late 90's as a result of GM's
Impact, which many thought was a good vehicle.  But batteries didn't develop
as was hoped, so the requirement was basically substituted with one for near
zero emission vehicles.  These are called PZEVs (partial zero emission
vehicles).  Their emissions are the same as would be discharged from a
natural gas powerplant in California to recharge an electric vehicle, or
virtually zero emissions.  They also have zero gasoline evaporative
emissions.  Most importantly, they have a 15yr/150,000 mile warranty such
that anything that turns on the check engine light is fixed by the
manufacturer at no charge.  To me, that is a great achievement.  There are
many of these cars on dealers lots today, such as Dodge Stratus, Ford Focus,
Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and many more models.  By 2010, about 40% of the
California fleet will be PZEVs.  You can't get these cars in any other state
that hasn't adopted the California program.  And they are priced normally.
All the easy solutions to cleaning up the air are long gone, and many people
in the more populated areas of the state do still have chronic health
problems linked to air pollution.  Maybe you are healthy, but many are not.
Be thankful.  One of the largest sources of smog forming emissions is still
the heavy duty trucks and busses out there.  Cleaning up diesel emissions is
really tough, but substantial progress is being made such that really large
emission reductions will be achieved with the ARB's new 2007 and 2010
standards for those vehicles.  Stationary sources are much less of the total
emissions and are already controlled stringently.  Measures are decided
based on cost-effectiveness as a major criterion.  At this time, there are
no further measures planned on lowering emissions for the new light duty
vehicle fleet because they are so clean.  ARB also developed On-Board
Diagnostic (OBD)systems to help repair new cars and their electronics and to
replace the old smog check test for 1996 and newer vehicles.  ARB testing
shows it is a superior system to the old dyno test for catching emission
problems and only requires connecting a scan tool to evaluate the system.
Credit the Bureau of Automotive Repair and the service station industry for
thwarting our efforts to replace the current dyno test with a really cheap
check of the OBD system for 1996 and newer cars.  In time, we hopefully will
prevail.  At least newer cars less than 6 years old will now be exempt from
smog check because they just don't fail in that timeframe.  Both
organizations fought that one hard and lost.
> I personally am grateful that there is still an exemption for all cars
1975 and older in California since I have so many cars in the 1957-1973
period.  Some states still require these older cars to continue to go
through a smog check type program indefinitely.  The rolling exemption was
eliminated because even though the older cars are driven relatively less and
collector cars hardly at all, there are enough of them around that pollute
greatly compared to a new car, even when operating as designed.  For
example, NOx (nitrogen oxide) emissions from a new PZEV are .02 grams/mile.
When I tested my 1970 Chrysler at Chrysler's emission test facility where I
worked over 20 years ago, it registered 7.0 grams/mile NOx on the same test.
If you do the math, 350 new PZEVs would be needed to put out the same
emissions as my 1970 Chrysler, which was operating normally (based on in use
data from older cars, my 1970 Chrysler was typical).  For hydrocarbons, the
new PZEVs put out .01 grams/mile HC while my 1970 Chrysler put out 5.0
grams/mile.  Thus it takes 500 PZEVs to put out the same amount of HC as my
1970 Chrysler from a cold start.  The point is that an emission inventory
was done that showed despite the fewer miles driven by older cars, in total
they put out a large chunk of emissions compared to other possible emission
reduction measures.  I do not believe cars older than 1975 will ever be
brought back into smog check in California because of the influence of the
collector car hobbyists, so I do believe it is wise to keep up the pressure
from a collector standpoint.  I still think the rolling exemption made sense
since as the collector cars get older, they really don't contribute much -
it is the junkers that just keep going in California even at 30 years old
that are the root cause of the old car problem.  I was hoping someone from
the collector car lobby would have introduced a measure that exempted
collector cars, but I guess it is too hard to identify them reliably for
such a measure to work.
> I believe it has been essential to get the new vehicles down to near zero
emissions to help get us closer to attainment - that way a lot less pressure
is put on our collector cars than otherwise would be the case, and for the
last 24 years I have been doing that at CARB.  There are other automotive
enthusiasts at CARB, even my boss (he has a 1957 fuel injection Corvette).
There is a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of anger, which is
regrettable.  Not everything CARB does will succeed, but it does keep trying
and it has been successful in cleaning up the air, which is particularly
noticeable in the metropolitan areas where I live (it may not be noticed as
much in Danville).  Electric cars didn't work, but the newer hybrids coming
are an outgrowth of that technology and fuel cells powered by hydrogen in
the future will also rely on the same basic electric vehicle architecture.
And PZEVs are a real buy in my opinion, given the warranty.
> ARB has pressures on it by the federal government and environmentalists,
as well as the public.  ARB decisions are made in open forums in a
deliberative process.  It is my belief that ARB Board members are very
capable and make decisions in the interest of public health and do everthing
possible to consider the interests of the collector car hobbyists as well.
Everything is a balance.  The bottom line, we are not yet achieving
healthful air quality as judged by the EPA, and are forced to continue to
develop clean air measures that are cost-effective.  And we have a long way
to go, unfortunately, to achieve that standard.   Public opinion in every
poll I have seen in California says air quality is still not good enough,
and in a democracy, that is what gets attention.  And if you think the
agency just wants to prolong itself, most of the salaries for staff are
about 30% below the average for similar classifications in private industry.
Most stay there because they believe they are making a positve difference.
It is the reason I stay there.  And I love the old car hobby as much as any
of you.
> Steve Albu
>
>
> ---- Bob Jasinski <rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > Steve and list,
> >
> > I live in California I see Ray's post as being very germane to the
interests of this board. You've really struck a nerve here, and as a
California car hobbyist I can readily tell you I support Ray's position.
Yes, the air is cleaner and that is a very good thing, but if it was left up
to CARB and the Sierra Club, we would all be driving electric cars and
bicycles, and living in high density apartments.  CARB is a government
bureaucracy that must constantly find new ways to generate revenue for
itself by forcing the liberal environmentalist agenda down our throats,
whether it makes sense or not.
> >
> > Take a look at the MTBE scandal.  CARB, with the full support of the
Sierra Club, pushed through the requirement for adding MTBE to California
gas while the conservatives, (yes there are some in CA) supported by
experts, (Dr. Bill Wattinberg for one) advised against it, citing studies
done in other states on MTBE negative effects.  The tree huggers knew better
of course, and MTBE became a requirement, polluting the groundwater as a
result.  It has now been removed from the gas, now that "they" know better.
> >
> > California smog laws are draconian and getting worse. What happened to
our promised-by-law 25 year rolling exception for older cars that would have
exempted them from smog testing?  Well, it was changed to a 30 year
exemption, and just 3 months ago, under pressure from CARB and the Sierra
Club, the 30 year rolling exemption was eliminated entirely!  From now on,
any car built from 1976 on will have to be smogged, forever, period! No
exceptions. Even if you drive the car 10 miles a year! The worst part of it,
is that you can never do any modifications to the engine of the car ever. No
non-stock carburetor changes, air cleaners, nothing. It must stay stock,
forever.
> >
> > Case in point.  I owned a very low mileage 1979 MGB that I enjoyed
immensely, and I was looking forward to the day that I could get rid of the
crappy factory Zenith carb that is difficult to keep in tune, and inadequate
for the demands of the engine.  I was planning on installing the Weber
upgrade kit that included a new intake manifold, Weber carb and header pipe.
I was anxious to get more reliability, better mileage, and more performance.
That has all changed now because of CARB and the Sierra Club pressure to
eliminate the rolling 30 year exemption. Oh, and guess what...I only drove
the car about 1,000 miles a year.  I'm sure my little MGB was a major
contributor to global warming, and the we know whats-best-for-everyone
mentality of the Sierra club members are happy that my MGB will no longer be
polluting California's air, because I sold it on eBay to a collector in St.
Louis.  One other point...my last smog test with the MGB was a CARB Dyno
required test, not the static tests it always managed to pass before, and
the price doubled to $90 as well.
> >
> > This topic is of importance to this list.  It is important because if we
as car collectors are not vigilant, and if CARB, the Sierra Club, and other
tree huggers have their way, our right to drive our 300s freely as we please
will be taken away and our cars turned into static displays, being trailered
to car shows.
> >
> > The car collector has NO friends within CARB and the Sierra Club.  As
far as I'm concerned, they are the enemy and the sooner we all realize it,
the better off we will be.
> >
> > Bob Jasinski
> > Danville, CA (Near the Blackhawk museum, with many beautiful static car
displays)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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>
> To send a message to this group, send an email to:
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