RE: [Chrysler300] Vin tag information HELP?

["Rich Barber" <c300@xxxxxxx>]

Unless I read it wrong, the verification of the VIN tag by the "secret code"
stamped elsewhere (not for us to know, but others do) makes replacement of
the VIN tag a cosmetic issue.  

I did turn down a C-300 early on that had a door jamb VIN tag replaced with
what looked like the engine S/N (began with 3NE55XXXX, like an engine S/N).
It had been certified by a state DOT, but I was not impressed they knew what
they were doing since VIN's & engine S/N's rarely, if ever, match.  Had I or
the seller known about the existence of the "secret codes", the VIN could
have been corrected or confirmed and I (and hopefully most of the rest of
the collector world) would have accepted a replacement door tag.

C-300'ly
Rich Barber
Brentwood, CA
1955 C-300 (firewall tag rivets let loose, replaced with metal
screws--doesn't change who it is, or was)

-----Original Message-----
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Owen Grigg
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 2:45 PM
To: 'John Lyons'; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Vin tag information HELP?

Hi John,

I suppose a debate on this issue is healthy, so I'm going to have to
respectfully disagree. Personally, as a buyer, whether the vin plate has
fallen off or been purposely removed or tampered with, that car, to me, has
less desirability/authenticity/value.

With my present 300C restoration, I have gone to considerable length to stop
painters and body restorers from removing or tampering with the vin tag.
They work around it, underneath it, beside it but they do not remove it.

I recently came across a '60 DeSoto Adventurer that had all the signs/parts
leaving me in no doubt that it was a factory ram induction car. The car was
very reasonably priced and local in NZ! When I discovered the vin tag had
been removed and the owner denied any knowledge of it, I completely lost
interest in it. To me, that car has lost its identity, where was the tag,
was it on another vehicle, who knows. 

Maybe I'm just over the top on this issue.

No tag, no cash.

Owen 

-----Original Message-----
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of John Lyons
Sent: Saturday, 26 August 2006 9:06 a.m.
To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Vin tag information HELP?

Hi Owen (and all),

I appreciate and completely understand your comments.  I would argue that
the cars desirability has not dissipated at all.  The car is real...Gil
confirmed that, the vin simply fell of and became part of upstate NY
soil...it is not in use (so nothing untoward has occurred), and these cars
are known for having these plates fall off the car simply due to the process
of installing the tags back in '61 (and surrounding years).

Recently, an upstanding and active club member sold a letter car (I will be
very vague here) for another upstanding member of the club who was not in a
position to market the car.  This car had been issued a state vin number for
some reason but had passed muster with the club.  I privately raised the
question with the seller of the car who was not concerned about it and was
told that the club recognized the car without issue.  I envisioned the same
folks that you mention below as "ok'ing" the car.  The car sold for
competitive and presumably appropriate money for the owner.

The car from NY still had the data plate in tact on the car and the secret
code bared out the fact that it was correct, original and authentic.  I took
on the client thinking that AG would produce the correct tag and that would
be the end of it.

Nine months later, I am appealing for the name of an ethical outfit to
produce the tag...what a nightmare!

JL

-----Original Message-----
From: Owen Grigg [mailto:ram300@xxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 4:27 PM
To: 'John Lyons'; Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [Chrysler300] Vin tag information HELP?

Hi all,

I don't want to be to harsh here, but if you choose to buy a car with no vin
tag OR another car's vin tag OR a reproduction vin tag OR go into a deal
blind/without research I think you need to realize that that car may never
be 100% authentic and it's monetary value will probably be less. 
Buying a 300 with the values heading skyward, to me, has become quite a
process. You need to use all the clubs resources, Gil Cunningham, Wayne
Graefen, Gloria Moon to name a few and research the car prior to purchase. 

I think in John's case if the new owner was aware that the car was missing
the vin tag, then he should also of been aware that some/a lot(?) of the
car's desirability was already gone. If you want to get involved in
rehashing/changing vin tags be prepared to get upset.

My 2c worth.
Adding fuel to the fire.

Owen      

-----Original Message-----
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of John Lyons
Sent: Saturday, 26 August 2006 3:04 a.m.
To: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Chrysler300] Vin tag information HELP?

Hi club,

I had hoped to NOT have to post this on the server but I need some help.
Nearly a year ago, a 300G was found in the backwoods of New York.  This car
was widely reported by the automotive media because it was a true and
authentic stick shift car (a so-called code 281 car).  I went and took
pictures of it and ultimately helped the buyer with the transaction as a
paid consultant, NOT a middleman.  The vin tag on the car was gone when the
car was found.  It was not registered with the club and was not a number in
use in any DMV data base so it likely fell off the car at some point during
the 30 years the car sat in a field.

The secret code validated the car as real so there is no question of the
authenticity of the car.

I went to Tags backeast (AG) and presented him with a valid bill of sale
signed by the New York seller, Gils work-up on the car, photos of the code
and the IBM build card for the car.  He produced a vin tag...and incorrectly
changed an 8 to a 0 in the tag.  The buyer discovered this error and
returned the tag to me.  That tag has since been destroyed.

When I went back to AG, he refused to refund the money or produce a new tag.
He denied the error was his.

I went to another firm and paid them a small fortune (several times what AG
charges) for a new tag, and while the tag is correct, it is obviously not
authentic.

The buyer is very upset to say the least.

This brings me to my questions:

1)  Is there someone else who reproduces Chrysler vin tags with a
respectable level of authenticity?

2)  If not, would there be long term concerns with this car because of the
obviously incorrect vin tag (with the correct number on it)?

How is that for the loaded post of the week?

John  



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