Ron,
My guess is Mopar used a 3.36 rear in 57 because with 14 inch wheels it would give about the same engine rpm at cruise speeds as the 1956 3.54 ratio with 15 inch wheels. The TF would have been faster in 1st and slower in 2nd compared to a PF.
Dave Homstad
56 Dodge D500
----------------------------------------- From: Archangel1390@xxxxxxx
To:
Cc:
Sent: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 12:34:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] 57 Custom Royal Lancer D500 badging
Dave,
Yep, now you got it right. Of all the changes to make a Mopar run faster I have found the rear end ratio makes the biggest difference. The 56 Plymouth Fury came through with a 373 rear end. All the Touqueflite automatic 57 and 58 Fury's and D-500's came through with 336 ratios which I feel worked against the Touqueflite 3 speed gear advantage. I feel Chryslers big mistake by not putting a 373 or 391 rear end ratio in the 57 / 58 as the stock rear end since they were advertised as performance cars.
General Motors sold 4:11 rear gears like they were going out of style those GM cars really .performed. Chrysler products eventually went to a 354 rear gears in the 70's as their performance rear end.
The disadvantage of the higher geared rear ends is highway driving RPM's are higher so you tend to keep your driving speed under 65 MPH. To offset the higher RPM's we ran the biggest and tallest tires would could find for the highway to bring the RPM's down a little.
Ron
PS. Did you know in 1957 the fastest car that did 0 to 60 MPH in 7.5 seconds was the Rambler Rebel and that model only came through with a 411 rear end STOCK.
In a message dated 9/5/2015 4:09:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhomstad@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Ron,
Ah, now it makes sense. You left your 56 Fury in 1st gear until 50 ft from the 1/4 mile finish line. The PowerFlite 1st gear ratio was 1.72, and the TorqueFlite 2nd gear ratio was 1.45. When a TF shifted into second and rpm dropped from 5000 to 3000, the PF has a gear ratio advantage and a higher rpm resulting in more power.
However, the TF has a huge advantage over the PF while the TF is in 1st gear! First gear in a TF is 2.45, and will last up to at least 50 mph. And with a 3.91 rear ratio, a TF would have the same overall gear ratio in 2nd as a PF in 1st, and even better in high.
In theory, a TF with 3.91 would jump ahead of a PF off the line, at 50 mph go to 2nd, but with higher speed from the start and the same overall ratio, the rpm should be slightly higher, thus making more power and making the 57 even harder to catch, then just before the finish, shift into high, but at a higher rpm for more power at the finish.
Probably the biggest disadvantage for a 57 is the extra 400 lbs or so they are dragging along.
I'm not so sure a 2 bbl has any advantage off the line. A WCFB 4 bbl operates on the 2 bbl primaries until engine demand opens the vacuum secondaries for more power. If the engine doesn't need it, it won't take the extra fuel. If you are burning rubber up to 30 mph, there seems to be no need for more power at the launch. Maybe with the lower power of a 2 bbl there will be less wheel spin and greater traction for more acceleration, for 20 feet.
I don't have any launch power problems from excess fuel with my dual quad 56. Without a SureGrip, it just sits there and makes lots of tire smoke, without even power braking first.
Average times at 15.50 is excellent for anything from 1956. A best at 14.58 seconds is tremendous time! Congratulations!
Dave Homstad
56 Dodge D500
-----------------------------------------
From: Archangel1390@xxxxxxx
To:
Cc:
Sent: Sat, 5 Sep 2015 01:33:06 -0400
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] 57 Custom Royal Lancer D500 badging
Dave,
Perhaps I did not make it clear on my explanation, My Powerflite was wound tight 5000 RPM's at 50 feet from the end of the quarter mile, the shift into drive was like a kick in the ass with a big surge forward over the finish line.
The Powerflite was always in it's power range from 30 MPH to 80 MPH with a super push into drive a 5000 RPM's. Also my 56 was torque up against the brake to spin the tires up to 30 MPH when the light went green
.
It is a fact that a 2 bbl carb is faster off the starting line for the first 20 feet then a 4 bbl carb, and a 4 bbl carb is faster then dual carbs for the first 20 feet from the starting line.
( 20 feet off the line in drag racing is about one car length)
Dave, on paper what you say makes sense, but my opinion is the lower first gear ratio should be quicker but the dual carbs from a dead stop should be quicker but instead they were neutralized by the fact that the 2/4 bbl dumped enough gas to slow the car off the line. When racing a 3 speed torqueflite they would start closing the gap on my 56 that was ahead of them, but before they could close the gap between us they would shift into second gear which took them out of their power range and they would drop back when in second gear while my 2 speed powerflight was still in its full power range.
I hung out with guys with 56,57, 58 Fury's and Golden commando. My best friend Frank Lewis had a 57 Fury 318 and really want to beat my 56. One day he asked me what I would do if I had a 57 Fury to make it faster? I told him one four barrow carburetor and a 391-1 rear end gears. Well later I was sorry that I gave him that advise-------he went to one 4 bbl and 391-1 gears and I had a hell of a time beating him. He would cross the 1/4 mile finish line right ahead of my rear bumper. If I was slow on the starting line he could jump me and beat me.
My average time in the quarter mile was 15.50 seconds, later I went with the factory optional package of dual four carbs, factory hotter cam, 391-1 rear gears, wider tires and traction bars and turned in my best time of 14.58 seconds.------( and still stock and Powerflite)
Ron
In a message dated 9/4/2015 3:21:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dhomstad@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Ron,
The 56 Mopars had 15 inch wheels and the 57s had 14 inch wheels. With the rear ratios you mentioned, the engine rpm in high gear should be close enough as to make no difference.
With these gears, these Mopars would need to be moving at nearly 120 mph at the end of a 1/4 mile to be near the engine rpm red line of about 5000 rpm and wound tight. This mph needs a car capable of 12 second 1/4s. Ain't no way a stock 56/57 Mopar is going to get there that fast.
The advantage 57s had was a much lower first gear in a TorqueFlite.
The advantage 56s had was 400 lbs less weight.
I'd place my money on a 56 D500 with a TorqueFlite.
Dave Homstad
56 Dodge D500/ TorqueFlite
-----------------------------------------
From: "Ron Swartley" <0000109753cb24f9-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
Cc:
Sent: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 21:25:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] 57 Custom Royal Lancer D500 badging
Dan,
The powerflite 2 speed automatic D 500 in 56 has 354-1 or 373-1 rear end gears stock and the 57 D 500 with Toqureflite 3 speed came with a 331- 1 rear end gears. In a quarter mile that makes a big difference. I raced both for more than 20 years.. Powerflite 2 speeds were wound tight at the end of the quarter mile and Toqureflites are not peaked out with stock rears.
Ron Allyn Swartley
Hi Daniel:
I'll have to agree with Gary. Back in June 1956, I purchased a new D-500 with the Coronet 2-door body. Had the 315 Hemi and a single carb. Weight with a full tank of gas was 3685 lbs. When the '57 D-500's came out, one of the dealer's salesmen challenged me to a race. From a dead start, we were even for about 5 feet and from then on it was my race! He also had a 2-door model with the 325 hemi and a sinlge carb. I went into the Air Force in May of 1957 and the only car that ever beat me until then was a tri-power Pontiac and that was by only a length or two in 0.6 miles.
Dan Reitz
Bell Canyon, CA
In a message dated 9/3/2015 2:31:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, glpavlovich@xxxxxxx writes:
Daniel,
I place my "bet" on the lighter chassis; '57 Firesweep, if it is indeed
lighter.
Gary Pavlovich
56 Plymouth w/Poly 318 Stroker
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Davids
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 11:22 PM
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [FWDLK] 57 Custom Royal Lancer D500 badging
Fellow Forward Lookers,
I’m currently doing a bit of overdue tuning and sprucing up the engine
compartment of my 1957 CRL.
My example is two-tone green with the D500 engine option (325 hemi, block
stamped KD500).
I have a question about the badge on the trunk lid of this year, model, and
engine option.
Should it not have a red and black “500” emblem in place of the helmeted
lancer with spear?
The brochures for this year Dodge are pretty short on explanation of option
packages.
Cheers from wet and soggy Seattle — a nice change from 10 weeks of straight
sunshine (not normal),
Dan Davids
P.S. Once we get her running again, we plan to do a runoff of sorts with my
57 Firesweep, which as the 325 poly.
The numbers for horsepower and torque would say the CRL is quicker, but my
son thinks the lighter weight (lower trim) Firesweep will prevail. Bets?
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