Re: [FWDLK] dual masters- was RB 383 cam
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Re: [FWDLK] dual masters- was RB 383 cam



 Or you could mount a more modern mechanical brake light switch under the dash.

Dave Homstad
56 Dodge D500


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Neil Vedder wrote:

 The brake light switch screws into the front (sometimes at the     bottom
orifice) of the OEM M/C.

Installing a dualie is not cheap, quick, or really easy to retrofit,     and includes
a separate plumbing-connection of that switch into the brake's     hydraulic system.

See attached.


On 8/5/2014 8:32 PM, Roger van Hoy       wrote:

Ok, I’ll bite.  Where’s the “brake light switch warning             light” on an original ‘57 Dodge’s master cylinder?  AFAIK             the brake light hydraulic switch threads into the front of             the master cylinder and any leaking would be out of the             master, not into it.  The parking brake warning light             [optional equipment] is on the emergency brake assembly and             is a mechanical switch.
 
That reminds me, our old emergency brakes work marginally             well in an emergency, not just for parking.  In 1996 on the             way to the DeSoto Nationals in Sacramento a guy in a ‘56             DeSoto pulled off the freeway at around 60, hit the brakes             on the off ramp, they failed, and he was able to stop the             car.  [He also got the hard luck award.]
 
--Roger van Hoy
 
From: Neil Vedder
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 9:50 AM
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] dual masters- was RB                   383 cam
 
And             especially unfortunate because your single pot M/C had been             overhauled
and was 'working'  (i.e.: merely holding surplus brake fluid             in it, without leaking).

My car's single-pot failure occurred in 1981, shortly after             I had bought it, and after
it had been dead stored for years, and while not realizing             that all of the various fluid
levels should be checked periodically.

Unbeknownst to me (because I wasn't checking the brake fluid             level) was that a small
amount of fluid was being forced out, past the brake light             switch warning light's
threaded insertion (no teflon tape around it) into the M/C,             every time that the brake
was applied.

Neil Vedder


On 8/5/2014 8:57 AM, Jim wrote:
Or there's this.... You remove the single mc                     that has worked fine for 50 years and ask your                     mechanic to install a dual plus disk brakes cuz "you                     want to be safe".  You get the car back and it stops                     fine.  6 months later you are driving on the freeway                     in the rain and traffic is stopped up ahead.  You                     put on the brakes and the new front flex hose bursts                     because it was a little too short and positioned at                     too sharp an angle and has already fatigued.  But                     you still have the rear brakes... but since you slam                     on the brakes because they are barely stopping the                     car (without the fronts you only have 20% braking                     capacity) the left rear locks up.  The car slides                     out of control on the wet pavement, you spin across                     3 lanes and into a gas tanker which bursts into                     flames.  Dozens of people flee in the ensuing panic,                     those who don't die in the fire are run over, the                     tanker was under a bridge, which weakened by the                     fire collapses cutting off access to a home for the                     elderly. Two of the elderly, seeing the melee, have                     heart attacks.  They die because the ambulance                     couldn't get to them because the bridge was burned                     down by the tanker.  If you'd still had the single                     MC on none of this would have happened... now single                     masters don't seem so bad!
 
Jim Delton
 
___________________________________

From: Jim Rawa mailto:000001299b98410f-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 7:38 AM
Subject: [FWDLK] dual masters- was RB 383 cam
 
Here's a scenario... you have a                               perfectly maintained single master brake                               system in your 57 Saratoga, while trying                               to tune in your restored AM radio, you                               look up while driving and see its too                               late! you just ran over an old guy                               crossing the street!!! he flies of the top                               of the car but his walker went under and                               folded and rolled, and subsequently caught                               and tore out your rear flexible hydraulic                               line! now you have no brakes and proceed                               to broadside a bus full of illegal                               immigrants, you go through the windshield                               upon impact due to lack of belts, airbags,                               and brakes, the bus flips, and all the                               passengers burn to death, though one good                               event took place lightening the burden on                               taxpayers, an old man, his walker, your                               car, and bodily well being were                               compromised! If you had a dual master, you                               may have still hit the old guy, but not                               the bus... now single masters don't seem                               so bad!
 
 
-----Original                               Message-----
From: Neil Vedder mailto:esierraadj@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: L-FORWARDLOOK mailto:L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tue, Aug 5, 2014 3:10 am
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB 383 cam

LOL                                   (not)....if they failed, they were not                                   properly maintained, or overhauled, to                                   prevent such
failures from having occurred.


Neil Vedder

On                                     8/4/2014 4:37 PM, Ray Jones wrote:
The idea here is                                               that with Dual MC, you                                               have 2 brake systems. Not                                               much trouble to plumb,                                               using the tubing and                                               components from a later                                               year car, it's a big                                               safety upgrade.

And, yes, I have                                               had several MC's fail over                                               the too many years I've                                               been driving these old                                               jewels.

You said you had                                               a wheel cylinder fail,                                               giving you a brake                                               problem. With a dual                                               system, you would still                                               have the other half to get                                               home on.

A total upgrade                                               with calipers and rotors                                               on the front, and better                                               yet on the back also is a                                               real improvement and                                               brings the car up to                                               highway cruising safety                                               standards.

Ray in Mena,                                             AR

On                                         Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Jim < 0000093b5b69d73c-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I know it's                                                   possible for brake MC                                                   to fail but in 50                                                   years of driving I                                                   myself have had brakes                                                   fail only once and it                                                   wasn't the MC, it was                                                   a front wheel cylinder                                                   and I don't know                                                   anyone else who has                                                   ever had a MC fail.                                                    Wear out enough that                                                   they had to pump the                                                   brakes, yes, but they                                                   knew it and it caused                                                   no problems.   It                                                   seems like a silly                                                   thing to worry and                                                   obsess over when you                                                   consider that the                                                   entire old car is a                                                   death trap compared to                                                   todays cars.
 
Jim
 
___________________________________

From: Richard Whelan                                                         < rwhelansr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, August                                                         4, 2014 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB                                                         383 cam
 
Let's                                                           see, 68                                                           Barracuda                                                           Formula S with                                                           dual pot power                                                           disc brakes,                                                           57 Dodge pick                                                           up with single                                                           pot original                                                           brakes, 65                                                           Rambler Marlin                                                           with dual pot                                                           power disc                                                           brakes, and a                                                           59 Rambler                                                           Custom sedan                                                           with single                                                           pot drum                                                           brakes so I                                                           guess we are                                                           on the fence                                                           with this one,                                                           but I can tell                                                           you which ones                                                           I am more                                                           comfortable                                                           driving in                                                           todays                                                           traffic.
 
From: Roger van Hoy
Sent: Monday, August                                                           04, 2014 11:59                                                           AM
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB                                                           383 cam
 
Here’s                                                           the Mobil                                                           page:
 
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
 
It lists                                                           ZDDP as ppm,                                                           not percentage                                                           like                                                           Valvoline’s                                                           website.  It’s                                                           only the                                                           15W-50 that’s                                                           got high ZDDP.
 
--Roger                                                           van Hoy
 
From: Greg C
Sent: Sunday, August                                                           03, 2014 5:59                                                           PM
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB                                                           383 cam
 
I've                                                           been using                                                           Mobil 15w-50.                                                           Here's what                                                           Richard                                                           Ehrenberg                                                           recommends.                                                           Full story in                                                           the Oct 2010                                                           issue. Mopar Action On-line - Tech                                                           Questions                                                            They'll sell                                                           you the back                                                           issue


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On                                                           Sunday, August                                                           3, 2014 7:31                                                           PM, Neil                                                           Vedder < esierraadj@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



Valvoline                                                           20/50 Racing;                                                           lots of ZDDP,                                                           for me.

And, even,                                                           Hemmings has                                                           gotten into                                                           the act, by                                                           selling                                                           synthetic
(which is                                                           really                                                           over-kill,                                                           IMHO)                                                           ZDDP-loaded                                                           motor oil.

Whether ZDDP                                                           is needed or                                                           not, in a                                                           lightly-used                                                           engine (like                                                           all of ours
are)....it is                                                           'cheap'                                                           insurance and                                                           can not hurt                                                           anything, but                                                           our
pocketbooks---check                                                           Hemmings'                                                           6-pack pricing                                                           (photo                                                           attachment).

Neil Vedder




On                                                           8/3/2014 4:24                                                           PM, Richard                                                           Whelan wrote:

We                                                           use Brad Penn,                                                           made in the                                                           old Kendall                                                           refinery in                                                           Bradford PA.                                                           Similar to                                                           Kendall GT-1                                                           with plenty of                                                           ZDDP. Dick
 
From: Roger van                                                           Hoy
Sent: Sunday, August                                                           03, 2014 6:30                                                           PM
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB                                                           383 cam
 
Another                                                           approach is to                                                           use Valvoline                                                           VR-1 racing                                                           oil; it has                                                           more ZDDP. 
 
However,                                                           a friend                                                           showed me an                                                           article in the                                                           Packard                                                           Pelican or                                                           whatever it is                                                           that says VR-1                                                           doesn’t have                                                           enough                                                           detergent.  I                                                           suspect it’s                                                           still more                                                           than oil 50                                                           years ago.
 
--Roger                                                           van Hoy
 
From: Jim
Sent: Sunday, August                                                           03, 2014 12:16                                                           PM
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB                                                           383 cam
 
I've                                                           found two easy                                                           ways to get                                                           the ZDDP back                                                           in the oil.                                                           One is to buy                                                           the Redline                                                           Break-In                                                           Additive and                                                           use about 3 oz                                                           of it with                                                           each oil                                                           change.  The                                                           other, even                                                           easier, is to                                                           buy a can of                                                           STP, which has                                                           the right                                                           amount of ZDDP                                                           in it, when                                                           you buy the                                                           oil and filter                                                           and put the                                                           STP in along                                                           with the new                                                           oil.  The                                                           advantage of                                                           the Redline is                                                           that it's                                                           actually a                                                           little cheaper                                                           per dose and                                                           is easy to                                                           poor.  The STP                                                           is thick and                                                           hard to pour.                                                            But the STP is                                                           available                                                           anywhere so                                                           it's pretty                                                           convenient.
 
From: Bill Parker mailto:hemirr@xxxxxxxxx
To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, August                                                           3, 2014 12:09                                                           PM
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] RB                                                           383 cam

 
Thanks                                                           for the input                                                           guys.  I agree                                                           about the                                                           oil.  I've                                                           driven the car                                                           a total of                                                           about 10 miles                                                           since buying                                                           it from                                                           another list                                                           member who                                                           also didn't                                                           drive it                                                           during his                                                           ownership I                                                           believe.                                                            There is a                                                           receipt from a                                                           commercial                                                           garage showing                                                           a ring and                                                           bearing job,                                                           but the                                                           receipt has no                                                           date on it.                                                            The inside of                                                           the engine is                                                           very clean and                                                           the oil isn't                                                           bad either so                                                           since that                                                           minor overhaul                                                           it must have                                                           been                                                           reasonably                                                           maintained,                                                           but of course                                                           with low ZDDP                                                           oil like we                                                           are all stuck                                                           with in the                                                           mainstream                                                           oils.  I'm                                                           thinking of                                                           using rotella                                                           once I'm back                                                           up and running                                                           since I don't                                                           have a                                                           converter to                                                           get clogged up                                                           with zinc. 
 
Bill                                                           & Kathi                                                           Parker, South                                                           Central                                                           Indiana,                                                           harboring of                                                           bunch of old                                                           and newer                                                           Mopars


On Sun,                                                           Aug 3, 2014 at                                                           2:12 PM, Neil                                                           Vedder < esierraadj@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Oh, that                                                           must be                                                           absolutely                                                           true, because                                                           nobody in the                                                           old car
hobby knows                                                           about the                                                           effects of NOT                                                           having ZDDP in                                                           flat tappet
car engines.

And, of                                                           course, the                                                           ruined cam                                                           shafts render                                                           the car and                                                           its engine                                                           completely
unrepairable                                                           and worthless.

The car                                                           mechanics, in                                                           particular,                                                           hate the                                                           effects of                                                           having to work                                                           on these
damaged                                                           engines.

Neil Vedder



On                                                           8/3/2014 12:05                                                           AM, Dave                                                           Homstad wrote:
Bill,

You might give some thought as to WHY the cam has developed 3                                                           bad lobes.
Here is a good article about how "OIL IS                                                           KILLING OUR                                                           CARS!!!!!".
http://www.dctra.org/?p=79

Personnally, I think this is a plot by                                                           the EPA to get                                                           old cars off                                                           the roads                                                           quicker, by                                                           removing the                                                           ZDDP from our                                                           oils. 

Dave Homstad
56 Dodge D500


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Bill                                                           Parker wrote:

  Hello all, I tore into                                                           the '60                                                           Saratoga                                                           engine today,                                                           an RB 383, and                                                           as I suspected                                                           from the                                                           symptoms, it                                                           has a wiped                                                           camshaft.  One                                                           lobe is just a                                                           little                                                           nubbin', and                                                           two others are                                                           clearly half                                                           what they                                                           should be.                                                            Seems like a                                                           simple cam                                                           swap is in                                                           order except                                                           of course for                                                           the small                                                           matter of                                                           early B/RB                                                           lifters and                                                           pushrods being                                                           different                                                           dimensions                                                           from the later                                                           ('66 and                                                           later?)                                                           stuff.                                                            >From a                                                           previous                                                           experience                                                           with putting a                                                           cam and lifter                                                           kit into a '65                                                           engine, I                                                           think I recall                                                           that the late                                                           lifters are                                                           taller, and                                                           must use the                                                           late pushrods                                                           to                                                           compensate.  I                                                           could have it                                                           backwards, but                                                           in any case, I                                                           think the                                                           solution to                                                           using a late                                                           cam and lifter                                                           kit is using                                                           the late                                                           pushrods too.                                                            I have several                                                           core 440                                                           engines and                                                           I'm thinking,                                                           make a cam                                                           selection, buy                                                           the late style                                                           lifters with                                                           it, and use a                                                           set of the 440                                                           pushrods                                                           (being that                                                           both my '60                                                           383 and the                                                           440's are RB                                                           engines with                                                           the same deck                                                           height).                                                            Comments/cautions/suggestions?                                                            This is not my                                                           hot rod and I                                                           plan to go                                                           with a pretty                                                           mild cam.
Bill & Kathi Parker, South                                                           Central                                                           Indiana,                                                           harboring of                                                           bunch of old                                                           and newer                                                           Mopars

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