Neil, A couple of points: 1. I think the technology of 1956 was more than adequate to have electronic timing instead of "recordings left to the interpretation of men holding stop watches and starter's flags". At least at major events like Daytona. 2. The shipping weight of a 56 Dodge Coronet 2 door is only 3350 lbs. Add a little gas and a driver and subtract the spare, and the race weight is in the 3500 range. Add about 250 for a Custom Royal hardtop. This is quite a bit less than 3700, and a whole lot less than a 4100 lb 57 Custom Royal. 3. The effect of an intake manifold with a "double log" (single plane = one large chamber, D500-1 2x4 carbs) vs. a "balanced port routing" (dual plane = separate runners from RH and LH sides of carb to ports, common street single 4 bbl) is most noticeable in normal street driving. The difference on a 315 Hemi is in the range of 10 - 15 hp. At low rpm the dual plane makes 10 hp more. At high rpm the single plane flows better and makes 10 hp more. The transition point where a single plane works better is around 3500 rpm. Since very little racing is done below 3500 rpm, a single plane is favored for racing applications. My Dodge single plane definitely shows no signs of "sponginess" or a "lack of correct response to throttle settings below engine speeds of about 3000rpm". It will roast the tires from a dead stop and from an idle, with an automatic. Dave Homstad 56 Dodge D500 -----Original Message----- From: Forward Look Mopar Discussion List [mailto:L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Eastern Sierra Adjustment Services Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:26 PM To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [FWDLK] The REST of the Story... Yesterday, I had referenced relatively many published articles which document the performance of the 1956 & 1957 D500 Dodges. Today, I'll present some performance comparisons on more-powerful cars, so that their capabilities can be considered, in relation to the published, and to the claimed accomplishments, of the 1956 D-500-1 race car, which had a 315c.i. Hemi engine, having dual carbs, 10:1 c.r., and which was probably-conservatively rated at 295 gross horsepower. Yesterday, I confirmed the 1956 D-500-1's 1956 Daytona Speed Week's Flying mile (130.577 mph) , and Standing, mile (81.786 mph) performances , which were accomplished by Chrysler engineer/Chief Test Driver Danny Eames, with the assistance of other factory-tuning/adjustments/trial runs (almost certainly true, but the extent of which I'm not aware). I also confirmed that the two "man-off-the-street" (Hot Rod 5/57) privateers, who had no factory backing, and who happened to drive their 1957 D501's to/from Daytona, posted times of 129.753 , and 84.408, respectively, which virtually tied the 1956 Flying Mile, but BETTERED by almost 3mph the 1956 Standing Mile , postings. Finally, I mentioned that the 1957, and by extrapolation the 1956, times were good enough only for a fourth place finishing, in the two classes. The winning speeds in the two classes (Sports Illustrated 2/22/57) were: Flying Mile: 300C: 134.128; Buick (!): 130.766; Ford(!!): 130.058; D501: 129.753; and Buick: 129.683 . The winning speeds in the Standing Mile were: 300C: 86.873; Merc: 85.511; Ford: 85.066; D501:84.408; and 300C: 83.897 . The 1956 D-500-1's Standing Mile time (81.786) , in 1957, would not have placed in the (recorded) top-5 finishers, but would have secured a fourth place finish, in the Flying Mile (130.577). How fast was the D500-1, or the D501 in quarter mile competition? Unfortunately, Daytona probably offered the best shot at recording true OEM performance times, because all the interested parties (factories) brought their best-effort to the Beach, for head-to-head competition, in ostensibly fair/honest OEM mechanical condition, via scrutiny of NASCAR officials and organization. Of course, in any competitive environment, certain Liberties are taken (as in the immortal words of S. Yunek: "They didn't say you couldn't"), so, it is almost certain that any/all of the corporate (and private, probably) entries received varying-extents of having been 'smiled-upon', in their preparation for Daytona. On any private drag strip, the extent of 'modifications' to any car are left to the creativity and duplicity of each and every participant, and to the integrity/knowledge/assiduousness of the entry-inspectors. And, until well-into the 1960's, electronic drag racing time/speed recordings were left to the interpretation of men holding stop watches and starter's flags (and who, otherwize, might be suspected of favoring certain cars/drivers in order to promote the subject track and/or the speed-records recorded AT that track ), who were, after-all, "only human" in possibly mis-recording event-data. Mistakes can also be honestly-made in writing-down an event's data (transposing numbers, e.g.) . OK; so what IS officially recorded, regarding the speeds of contemporary stock cars, in relation to any claimed performance data, from any 1950's "Race Car" (see disclaimers, above)? In 4/57, Speed Age (along with Hot Rod, and Sports Cars Illustrated: my favorite car-mags) tested a 1957 Fury (318 c.i., 290 gross HP; 9.25:1 c.r.; open rear end, STICK SHIFT) and recorded 0-60 of 8.21 , but no 1/4 times, despite their having tested in the same issue a '57 Belvie (301 c.i., 235 HP/4-bbl carb) and got 9.74 0-60, but, also, a 1/4 mile time of 17.54 . S.A. remarked that the Fury :"...appeared just a bit slow in Low gear, but it exploded into a mighty surge in second, as the rpm built up." Its 1/4 mile time might have been in the range of the mid 16's. The above brings-up a point reiterated by Hot Rod (5/56, ppgs 28-29) ; they went into some paragraphs in discussing, as part of their 1956 D500 review, the fact :" Anyone familiar with the theories and practices of intake manifolding should immediately recognize the inherent limitations of the "double log" manifold at low-and mid-range engine speeds. It would have been just as easy and much more effective in these speed ranges to manufacture a manifold with correctly designed and balanced port routing. ..." . Their point was that that D500 manifold was not particularly effective at speeds where a car would be accelerating up toward its maximum speed range, and, at high speeds :"...at the top end, it probably doesn't make any measurable difference at all which type [manifold] is used but with a 'double log' , one can definitely expect a certain degree of 'sponginess' and lack of correct response to throttle settings below engine speeds of about 3000rpm." HR (1/58) tested a '58 Fury, as part of a "1000 Mile Test Drive". That car had the 350c.i. engine with dual in-line AFB's, 305 gross HP, 3.73 open rear end, and the STICK shift. HR got drag strip best times of 15.9 seconds, at 88 mph. 0-60 "averaged about 8 seconds flat." The car weighed 3,825 lbs (with full tank of gas). HR speculates that, with 4.10 gears, that the car might have an e.t. :"NEAR 15seconds flat", at about 90mph. If true, then HR expected to lose .9 second e.t., while gaining 2mph, by lowering the gearset 37 'points'. They must have had a lot of faith in that trannie's synchros! In 4/58 S.A. tested the 361c.i. Super D500, in a CRL 2-dr HT,dual in-line AFB's; 320 gross HP, weighing 3,850 (not real heavy), and recorded 0-60 of 8.2 seconds, and a 1/4 mile of 16.4 @ 94mph (really moving, at the end) . I don't think that it had a SureGrip, but these fine numbers were produced via 3.31 gears, and using only the "D" button, and letting the car shift for itself. S.A (3/59) tested a '59 CRL D500 convertible, 383c.i., single AFB, AIR-bag /3.31 open rear end, 10:1 c.r. 320gross HP; weight not-disclosed(-DAMN). Anyway, this NOT light/aero-mobile scored an 8.8 second 0-60, and a 16.3 quarter mile @ 85mph. "CARS" (7/60) tested a CHP Dart(front)/Polara(back half) D500 383/single 4-bbl AFB; 10:1 c.r., 3.31 open rear end weighing a massive 4,150 (minimum weight, by statute: 3,950, for ground-hugging weight) and recorded a 1/4 mile speed of 86.25 (no need to record "times", but, BOY, does this car handle, with HD-everything! "Sports Cars Illustrated" (3/60) tested a 4-dr sedan Dart, with the Cross Ram Inducted 361 10:1 c.r. 310 gross HP, non-specified SureGrip(!), and T/Flite, and recorded 0-60 of 8.0 seconds and a 1/4 mile of 16.2 at 88 mph. The car weighed 4,120 (for a Dart??) "Motor Life" (9/61) tested a '61 Dart Seneca 2-dr sedan 'police pursuit' , with a 383 long-ram intake, 10:1 c.r., 330 gross HP, 3-on-the-tree, with a 3.23:1 SureGrip; car weighed 3,890lbs. Before I mention its times, I ask you: WHICH would you rather expect, to win a drag race ; this car, or a 1956 315c.i. D-500-1 rated at 290 gross HP, 10:1 c.r., with a 1956-vintage 3-speed trannie (not that there might be much improvement having been put into them, during the intervening 5 years????) and with a 4.56 or 4.89 open rear end , wearing 1956-vintage tires, and weighing ( I-forget; let's say, for charity:) 3,700lbs? Well, that race will probably never occur, except on somebody's Bench, but, M.L. recorded a 0-60 of 8.4 seconds, with a 1/4 mile of 16.5 seconds @ 89mph ! Not really all that fast, huh???? maybe it needs a lower gearset. The POINT of all these test-comparisons (I'm sure that you've been waiting to read) , is that DESPITE considerable enlargements/improvements to engines/suspensions, etc, and at least until the advent of the 413's which were put into the late 61's and into the "Super Stock" 62's, Chrysler was not able to improve, by very much, the overall OEM performance of its hot-performers! The biggest drawbacks to greatly improved performance (and the CONSTANTS, throughout these 6 years), are the vehicle's WEIGHTS and FRONTAL areas. I know that the Physics-formulae must exist, and, I believe that by knowing a given (car's) weight and the distance to be moved (1/4 mile) within a certain time (let's say: 15seconds), that a result can be obtained regarding the actual road horsepower needed to transport that mass over that distance (of course, some reasonable coefficient of friction would be required, to be applied to the formula, and I'm not certain about the application of gearing, either). SO: COULD a 1956 D-500-1, producing (let's say:) 150 road HP move itself 1320 feet within 15 seconds? Neil Vedder . ************************************************************* To unsubscribe or set your subscription options, please go to http://lists.psu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=l-forwardlook&A=1 ************************************************************* To unsubscribe or set your subscription options, please go to http://lists.psu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=l-forwardlook&A=1
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