Re: [FWDLK] O/T tariffs

[Bill Watson <wwatson5@xxxxxxxxx>]

Canada's 'goofy' models were due to the fact Canada is one tenth the size of
the U.S.   Canadian manufacturers could not build all the models and
variations offered in the U.S. and make money..  Thus Dodges using Plymouth
interiors and trim and Pontiacs based on the Chevrolet.

Chrysler Canada for years did not build 8-cylinder Chryslers or convertibles
in Canada, but you could get them as they were imported.  Same went for
Ford, GM, Studebaker and AMC - they imported the models they could not build
in Canada and make a profit.  Thus, even with tariffs and taxes, it was
cheaper for Chrysler to import 1957 Plymouth convertibles, for example, than
to build them.

The later cars, such as the 1978-1989 Plymouth Caravelle and 1976 & up
Pontiac Acadian, were actually built in the U.S. and were introduced to give
the Plymouth-Chrysler and Pontiac-Buick dealers the same market offerings as
the Dodge-Chrysler and Chevrolet-Oldsmobile dealers.

Since mid-1965 there has been free trade between Canada and the U.S. for
cars and parts.   In the two years prior to 1965, Canadian tariffs were
based on the volume manufacturers  exported - more exports, less import
duties.

And don't forget - before the arrival of the Japanese, etc., Canada's auto
industry was owned by American auto companies.   The Canadian subsidiaries
of DC, Ford and GM have suffered along with their parent firns, having
closed plants and gone through massive layoffs in Canada.

And we no longer have televisions or electronics built in Canada, either.
Basically, what has happened to the U.S. as far as manufactured goods is
concerned, has happened to virtually all Western industrial nations - United
States, Canada, Australia, Britain, France and Germany.   All have lost jobs
to the Japanese first and now the Koreans and Chinese.  And thanks to
American firms such as Wal-Mart, the move has been acceleraing with
thousands of jobs around the world lost by shifting production to China,
which is rapidly moving to the number one position in the world
economically.

The United States does not exist alone in a bubble.  It exists with the rest
of the world and has been hit with no different problems than any other
industrial country.   It's just that the United States cannot see beyond the
mirror, it seems.

Bill
Vancouver, BC



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill K." <pontiac@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [FWDLK] O/T tariffs


> In the 1800s and early 1900s the US had tariffs of 40% or more on imported
> goods.   Now, we have little or none.  Not only that the government ran
> virtually on those tariffs and nothing else, and we had no income taxes.
> Thats a subject for a whole other rant, though.  Where did our
manufacturing
> go?  Why are GM and Ford closing plants and unable to make a profit even
> thoiugh they're selling plenty of cars?
>
> Because in part of imports from places where they can pay workers a dollar
a
> day and sell it here for thousands less and still make a profit.
>
> This is what happened to the television making industry in the US.  The
> Japanese and other makers dumped their product here at a loss for so long
> that by the time the US makers got a favorable court decision, it was too
> late - all that was left was Zenith, and they were sold to someone who
> promptly moved the plant to Mexico.
>
> Now they're farming out office type work for technical support - you call
> the 800 number and get John, except you know darn well it's not his real
> name because they don't name people that in India.
>
>
> If the foreign carmakers had to pay a 40% tax per sale on autos made
outside
> of the US or with more than a certain percentage of parts made outside of
> the US, it would bring everything back into line.  Prices would go up, to
be
> sure, but it would become profitable for the US carmakers to sell their
> products cheaper than the foreign carmakers, and you'd save industry in
the
> US.   That way if God forbid we do have another major war, we have the
> infrastructure to support it.
>
> I mean, if we need tanks and planes are we going to go to Japan and China
> for those?  In WWII we had no new cars for nearly 4 years because we made
> equipment to fight with.  If all those factories are closed, who builds
them
> now?
>
>
> Not only that it's good for this country to be able to be independent of
the
> rest of the world, given the hostile attitude many nations have.   If we
do
> it all in-house, and some country decides they shouldn't sell their stuff
> here, so what?
>
>
> It's a complex issue, that's for sure.  But to bring this around to
> on-topic, Canada's rules about imports and content are why you have goofy
> Canada models that use Plymouth bodies and motors, Pontiacs that use
> Chevrolet chassis and running gear, and so forth.  They had to have
Canadian
> content, and the sales volume didn't justify the expense of importing all
of
> the various models to build there.
>
>
>
> Bill K.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Watson" <wwatson5@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [FWDLK] 1958 Dodge Production
>
>
> > Japanese manufactures pay local, state and federal sales taxes, as
nothing
> > can be done to avoid them.  And they are stuck paying taxes on their
> > buildings and real estate holdings plus any 'employee' taxes (is. social
> > services, etc.)..
> >
> > As for paying outrageous prices on imported parts in order to escape
> > American income taxes, that makes no sense.  Charging more for imported
> > Japanese parts inflates the profits of the Japanese parent.which results
> in
> > paying more Japanese income taxes which are higher than American.
> >
> > Also, the American subsidiaries pay dividends to the Japanese parent
which
> > generally lowers taxes payable in North America.   So price gouging
really
> > makes no sense.
> >
> > Besides, Toyota's own financial reports, for example,  show Toyota's
North
> > American operations with a US $2.2 billion profit (before taxes) for the
> > 6-month period ending September 30, 2005.  The Japanese market produced
a
> > net income of US $3.2 billion (before taxes) for the same period.   So
the
> > Japanese firms are paying their fair share of income taxes.
> >
> > Where do people come up with these ideas?
> >
> > Bill
> > Vancouver, BC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Homstad" <dhomstad@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 1:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [FWDLK] 1958 Dodge Production
> >
> >
> > > This subject of Imports really is one of my pet peeves. The US has a
> great
> > > trade deficit, which is primarily due to 2 issues. The lower cost of
> labor
> > > is one, but that is nothing we can do much about. The other is what I
> > > consider unfair trade practices with most other countries. The US
> > generally
> > > has low or no tariffs on imports, when compared to other countries.
Ever
> > try
> > > to import a US car into Japan? Their tariffs are like 50 or 100%! My
> > > suggestion is that the US should have a law that imposes the same
tariff
> > on
> > > other countries goods that they impose on ours. The other country sets
> the
> > > tariff. We just use their number. If Japan's tariff is 50% on US cars,
> > then
> > > ours is 50% on Japanese cars. If US goods were available with lower
> > tariffs,
> > > they would be cheaper and sell better, lower the trade deficit and
> > increase
> > > jobs in the US.
> > >
> > > Another issue is corporate income taxes. Everybody thinks that since
the
> > > Japanese build cars in the US, they pay corporate taxes here like
> > everybody
> > > else. They pay little or no taxes. They simply buy a few car parts
from
> > > Japan at many times their real value, say a transmission at $5000. All
> the
> > > profit goes to Japan and the US based division makes no profit, and
thus
> > > pays no taxes. The real reason Japan builds cars here is that the cost
> of
> > > labor and shipping from Japan is actually higher than the cost of
> building
> > > cars here. Notice that they always build their plants in low labor
cost
> > > areas of the country where the UAW union is non-existent?
> > >
> > > Dave Homstad
> > > 56 Dodge D500
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Forward Look Mopar Discussion List
> > > [mailto:L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Bill Watson
> > > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 8:30 AM
> > > To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: [FWDLK] 1958 Dodge Production
> > >
> > > You are right about CKD, but do not understand the term "dumping".
> > > "Dumping" is where a country exports goods to other markets at prices
> > lower
> > > than sold on the home market.    And, no, you cannot "dump" product in
> the
> > > United States as the American government does go after any country
fhey
> > > perceive as "dumping" goods, real or imagined.  The "imagined" dumping
> > > arises when the American government decides to support an industry
that
> is
> > > having difficulty keeping its head above water - the steel industry,
for
> > > example.
> > >
> > > The United States of America most certainly does have import duties on
> > > imported vehicles, which is why Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. have
opened
> > > assembly plants in the U.S.  For the more popular models, it is more
> > > economical to assemble vehicles in the U.S. with parts from American
> > > suppliers along with some imported parts than to get nailed with
import
> > > tariffs on the whole vehicle.   So the United States market is not so
> > > different from Australia, etc. except that the import duties are not
as
> > > high.
> > >
> > > The United States of America is the only country I know of that has a
> > > special VIN digit to denote vehicles assembled in the United States
with
> > > mostly imported parts - "4".   The first digit on the VIN adopted for
> the
> > > 1981 models year for cars sold in North America denotes the country of
> > > origin.,  When Diamond-Star first started building cars for Mitsubishi
> and
> > > Chrysler they had to use "4" as the first digit of the VIN as they
used
> > more
> > > imported parts than American.  ("1" is for the United States, "2" for
> > > Canada, "3" for Mexico, "6" for Australia, "9" for Brazil while
letters
> > are
> > > used for European and Asian countries.)
> > >
> > > The British assembly plant at Kew assembled vehicles using imported
> > bodies,
> > > chassis, drivetrain, glass, etc. and used British suppliers for its
> > 12-volt
> > > electrical systems, leather interiors and other bits.  British auto
> > > manufacturers were really into leather back then.   And during the
> 1930's
> > > Chrysler Great Britain had a unique serial number for each vehicle
they
> > > built, along with the American or Canadian serial number.
> > >
> > > The Canadian plant was the first foreign plant to get away from CKD
> > > production (actually started back in the Maxwell days).  Australia was
> > next
> > > in 1957 with the Chrysler Royal but Mexico, South Africa, and South
> > America
> > > did not get away from CKD production and into true local production
> until
> > > the late 1960's.
> > >
> > > British auto manufacturers also got into CKD manufacturing with
foreign
> > > licencees - the first Datsun in 1932 was based on the Austin 7, as was
> the
> > > BMW Dixie.  The first Datsun cars sold in North America in the early
> > 1960's,
> > > the Bluebird, clearly showed their Austin heritage in the engine
> > > compartment.and body styling.  Isuzu started building Hillman Minx
cars
> in
> > > Japan in the 1950's and many Hillman owners look to more moden Isuzu
> > engines
> > > and transmissions for their cars as they bolt in with very little
> > > modification.  Mitrsubishi built the Henry J car and the Willys Jeep
for
> > > Asian markets while Hino built the Renault 4CV in the 1950's and
1960's.
> > > The first Nissan, by the way, was introduced in late 1937 using the
> > tooling
> > > for the Graham Crusader purchased from Graham-Paige.
> > >
> > > By the way when bodies in CKD package are shipped to a plant that does
> the
> > > final paint coat, the bodies are referred to as "body in white".  As
CKD
> > > shipments are usually done by ship, steel parts cannot be shpped
> > unprotected
> > > from the elements.  Thus they are painted white before shipping to
> protect
> > > the metal against the salt air during transport.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > > Vancouver, BC
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Marv Raguse
> > > To: L-FORWARDLOOK@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 4:16 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [FWDLK] 1958 Dodge Production
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 2/3/2006 3:28:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > esierraadj@xxxxxxxxx writes:
> > > How did all the materials and componentry, for the Belgium-made cars
GET
> > > to the Belgium assembly plant?
> > >
> > > Were there 'duplicate' fabrication facilities, in Europe, or, in
> > > essence, were un-assembled cars sent there, to be assembled?
> > > CKD refers to "Completely Knocked Down" vehicle.  Parts are stacked
and
> > > shipped in boxes perhaps as many as 15 to 20 sets of parts in each
box.
> > Now
> > > it may take 10 or more boxes to complete the vehicles but that is how
> they
> > > go to the place of assembly. At the assembly facility the boxes
> would/will
> > > be opened and parts stacked along the line.  Frequently some parts are
> > sent
> > > in assembly alreadyif it makes logistical sense and the import rules
> > allow.
> > > You can have "Partial Knock Down" also.  Local tariff requirements
often
> > > dictate.  Only the good ole US is an open market where anyone can
dump.
> > Some
> > > tariffs are 50% and more.  Imagine if an imported Toyota cost that
much
> > more
> > > over here. Or we manadated local content,not NAFTA.  How many would
they
> > > sell?  Chrysler has, from time to time, CKD'd all around the world.
> > > Recently like Thailand for example.  Chrysler CKD'd Jeeps there.
Latin
> > > America for trucks and Jeeps. Alot of content goes to Graz, Austria
for
> > > Jeeps and Voyager Minivans.  Haven't assembled in Belgium or Kew GB in
> > many
> > > years..Also many countries specify how much content must be local and
> how
> > > much assembly must be local.
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