Very interesting post, but I would have to point out that there is a flaw. The part about not pushing the piston "up into the rusty cylinder" will only work if only one piston is in a rusty cylinder. In a V-8 engine (as well as any other type with more than one cylinder) while one piston is moving in a downward motion, others will be moving in an upward motion. This will ruin the rings of the upward moving pistons causing the need for a rebuild. I am as much in favor of making something work with as little effort as possible as the next guy. There is a point of diminishing returns, though. From the sound of the condition of the '58 Imperial engine, it is likely that there is no hope short of a rebuild. A Model T Ford is a toy compared to the precision and engineering involved in a 392 Chrysler Hemispherical Combustion V-8. Paul In a message dated 5/3/2004 11:55:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, imperialist1960@xxxxxxxxx writes: > Your dream of turning the engine over but having it stuck is probably coming >from something that often gets overlooked by people, open valves during >storage. > > I just got a Model T that had been under a car-port here in California. >Someone had removed the #2 sparkplug long ago, and had removed the hood and >everything, leaving it exposed to the air. No direct water ever got on it, >but that's not good at all because there's water in the air and it condenses n >anything it can when temperatures change. > > This particular engine that was in the car was stuck. > > I removed the head. > > This is important: > > Cylinder #2, which had been open was just fine. #3 was rusted with bright >orange rust. There was a large dead insect on top of the piston. It had its >spark plug still in and had been in a closed engine the whole time since being >parked in 1972. The water galleries and head gasket were fine with no >leakage. How did this come about? > > I have the engine freed up now and did not have to rebuild it, so please read >on, and this applies to most any car engine. > > Here's the deal: When you park a car, there is unconditionally one or more >valves open no matter where the crank stops. The car in my case had been >parked in 1972 and not touched since. With an exhaust valve open slightly >where it landed, it was exposed to the outside air via the exhast manifold and >exhaust pipe. > > There were large thin flakes from the wall of the cylinder raised off of the >walls and it was very ugly. > > If you store a car, it is best to turn it over, even without starting it, >once a month so that the valves are operated and the cylinder exposed to air >gets changed. > > Remedy: Got a car that's been sitting for a decade or more? ALWAYS remove >the heads and inspect. No Matter What! You will save yourself a rebuild >nearly every time. > > Once the heads are off, use a screwdriver to scrape at whatever rust is in >there. Don't gouge the cylinder walls, but just go for the scale and loose >stuff. Vacuum out. Now go back in with a rag wrapped around the screwdriver >and try to be a little more aggressive. > > After that's as clean as its going to get, drop marvel mystery oil in and >walk away for 24 hours, repeating at least once. Put in enough to create a >standing pool that will hopefully penetrate and soak in. It works even better >if the top of the piston is parallel to the ground, but that's tough in a V8 >without removing the engine. > > If the rust is particularly bad, and you think that pouring liquid in will >create a standing pool, you can use household vinegar which will dissolve the >rust in 48 hours. You'll have to drop the oil pan to get the vinegar out, but >you want to skip removing the block from the car, right? Suck out vinegar >after 48 hours of refilling it so that it is immersed and soaking and replace >vinegar with Marvel oil as described above. > > You now have a rusted cylinder that hopefully has oily rust or dissolved oily >rust, you now need to try to move the crank. Guess which way you want to >turn? The piston must move down its bore, irrespective of the normal rotation >of the engine - reversing the spin is OK. NEVER push the piston up the >cylinder. You will not be able to tell which direction of rotation is up with >the head on, so those have to come off for this reason alone, but you have to >do the cleanout first, so it's all related. > > There will be all sorts of junk on the cylinder wall. If you try to start >the car, and the piston gets jammed upwards though a hole that's too small due >to rust, you'll scrape all the rust off the wall with the rings. The rings >will be destroyed, and you'll have a smokescreen of oil pouring out the pipe >brcause the rings are no longer sealing or have shattered into fragments or >whatever. > > Dragging the piston down will hopefully mean that the rings are traversing >cleaner walls that were not exposed to air and water (sealed off by rings) and >won't be damaged. > > Take the piston to bottom and leave it there. Take a rag and clean out the >cylinder, getting what's left dry for inspection. Let's assume that there are >no giant pits or holes or whatever that would be a deal-breaker. Use moderate >grit sandpaper or emerycloth and sand the walls of the cylinder so that they >are approximately smooth with no major irregularities. Get a cylinder hone, >the sort with 3 long thin vertical stones and a flex driveshaft (not the >bristle-brush type) and use a medium or fine stone. I like fine with lots >more grinding time personally. > > Make certain that as you spin the hone, that you move it up and down >vigorously so that the scores that you're honing into the cylinder wall are >not horizontal and in the same plane as the top of the block or parallel to >the piston rings. > > On mine, it took maybe 5 minutes of alternating between honing and using >compressed air to blow dust out before I wound up with a semi-smooth surface. >I don't know how fast a power drill spins, but if it spins at 1000 RPM, then >that was maybe 3000 revolutions of honing. You'll never do that by hand, so >get a hone to do this job. Vacuum out and clean cylinder with a rag. > > Once done, I drop more marvel oil in, making sure to get all the way around >the piston, especially at the top. Wipe it all over the cylinder wall. > > Crank the engine now by hand. You've already lubed the other pistons, right? > Pull the cylinder(s) that you've been working on to top-dead-center. You'll >now have a rusty piston right up on top where you can get to it. Cover all >exposed parts that like to be kept clean. Wire wheel that guy and clean it >off. Shop vac off the top. repeat for other piston tops. Wipe clean and >drizzle more lubricant into the crack where the rings are. I use a giant >syringe for that, but you can use a turkey baster or whatever. > > Crank the engine over by hand and loosen it through motion. Keep the >cylinder walls wet with oil. When you get it moving freely, you're almost >home. Drop the pan if you feel it needed. Clean and reinstall. Put in fresh >oil. I like thicker stuff like 20/50. Reinstall the heads without the >valvetrain and the plugs off. Torque to spec. Now that this is all done, you >can crank the engine with the starter and spin it faster and see what happens. > You should have a free-moving engine that is ready to be reassembled and run. > > > You have had a chance to have the heads off and have wire-wheeled them (I >hope), so the combustion chambers and everything else is clean, right? >Rewire/reinstall the plugs and start her up. Chances are that the thing will >run. There may be some blow-by on that cylinder if the rings are not sealing >properly, but it may improve with several miles of use, so don't be too >concerned about a little oil vapor coming out the rear of the car. Some of >that will be the oil that's in the rings and all. > > You may get the heads off and realize the engine' is dead frozen and rusted >solid, but I would bet against it. I would also bet against the engine being >siezed on the bottom end, unless your car had an oil pump problem (unlikely), >or was started without any water in the cooling system, which sould cause lots >of bad things, including pistons and block getting swollen together from heat. > > Hope that helps. It's a bunch of seemingly extra work as opposed to just >starting the car up and driving it as one would wish, but this could make a >huge difference in how your engine works over the long run, and could allow >you to skip a rebuild for awhile. > > > > Kenyon Wills > San Lorenzo/SF Bay Area > > 1960 Chrysler Imperial >LeBaron>http://imperialclub.com/Yr/1960/Kenyon/Page01.htm > > 1964 Chrysler Crown Imperial>http://www.imperialclub.com/Yr/1964/Kenyon64/ > > 1973 Chrysler Imperial > LeBaron>http://imperialclub.com/Yr/1973/Wills/index.htm >