Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.

[randalpark@xxxxxxx]

Its certainly worth a try. If it doesn't work, move it back and replace 
the starter. Incorrect timing CAN cause starter drag. So can a seizing 
engine, or a bad starter.

The internal parts expansion that I referred to in my previous note 
wasn't to do with parts inside the starter, but rather internal engine 
parts. If the engine is getting hot enough that the internal parts of 
the engine are causing starter drag, then there is something seriously 
wrong with the engine. If the internal parts of the starter are getting 
that hot, the starter needs to be replaced.

I apologize for the confusion.

Paul W.

-----Original Message-----
From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.

Ok Paul,

I will retard the timing a little then, to see what happens!

Thanks again,

Robert
----- Original Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.

Internal parts expansion should NOT be a problem with these cars. If 
the engine is getting that hot, it isn't going to run very much longer. 
The only cause I have ever experienced with this symptom (starter drag 
when warm) on any of my Imperials has been the timing issue. For me, 
starter trouble has always simply resulted in a total failure of the 
unit, out of the clear blue sky without any warning.

Paul W.

-----Original Message-----
From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.

Thanks Paul for your sharing your knowledge! As always to the point, 
and very helpful!
I will give it a try then and back off the timing a little, too see 
what happens. The reason I gave it a little extra adventage is to 
compensate the slight power loss that you get when you convert an 
engine to run on LPG (or propane as it is called in the US). You can do 
this safely because the octane rating of propane is much higher, so you 
don't have to worry about pre-ignition (spark knock).
Another reason for starter drag might be an internal seizure due to 
expanding of parts inside under influence of the heat, don't you think? 

----- Original Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx> To: 
<mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 4:16 PM 
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.
> My feeble mind says that depending on where the engine is when it 
stops, > if the ignition is firing, pushing the piston down, while the 
starter is > trying to push it up the starter will drag. If too many 
pistons are doing > this at the same time, the engine will be difficult 
to crank. It can > happen when its cold too, but usually is more 
noticeable, and likely to > occur when the engine is warmed up. Over 
the years I have been in this > situation a number of times. Correcting 
the timing has reduced the load on > the starter. > > My father 
actually once talked a guy he worked with into rebuilding the > engine 
in a car that was doing the same thing, after he replaced the > 
starter. My father, who is a mechanical engineer, convinced the guy 
that > he had a spun bearing, and that the engine was going to seize, 
even though > the car ran fine once it started. The new engine didn't 
fix the problem. > Further discussion led to the fact that the guy 
habitually advanced his > timing, even on his new "long block" engine, 
a little bit past factory > specification to get a little extra 
"UMPHF". When he backed it off, the > problem went away. > > As I have 
explained before, my knowledge is based on practical experience. > I am 
not an engineer, chemist, or scientist. What I share has worked for > 
me. I road time my cars, I do not use a light. When they are too far > 
advanced, they spark knock, which is damaging to the engine. They can 
be > difficult to turn over, particularly when warmed up. There are 
several > different problems that can cause this same symptom. I am 
suggesting one > idea that might correct it. > > In your shoes, I would 
back off the timing and see if the problem went > away, before 
replacing the starter, especially since you know that the > timing is 
advanced.. > > Paul W. > -----Original Message----- > From: 
R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sent: Fri, 
23 Mar 2007 5:27 AM > Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine 
is At Operating Temp. > > Sorry Paul, but I don't understand... > > How 
can the timing influence the rotation speed of a starter motor?? > I 
must admit that my timing is too advanced hower, it's about 12.5 
degrees > BTDC instead of the recommended 10 degrees. That is because 
the engine is > running on propane instead of gasoline. > Since propane 
has a much higher octane rating then regular gasoline it is > safe to 
advance the timing a little, and it gives the engine more power. > > 
But I don't understand why this also influence the performance of the > 
starter motor when the engine has been warmed up ? > > Maybe you can 
shine a light on it for me :) > > Thanks, > > Robert > ----- Original 
Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx> > To: 
<mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:36 PM 
> Subject: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp. > 
> That will also happen if the timing is too advanced. Try backing it 
off > a little and see if the problem goes away. Heat shouldn't effect 
the > starter that much. > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > 
From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > 
Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 2:50 AM > Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 
60 imperial > > OK James, > > I understand, maybe the best thing I can 
do is to find me a reputable > rebuilder and send him my original 
starter. > You see, mine is having problems when it is getting hot. The 
starter > spins perfectly when the car is cold, but when the car is 
driven for a > while and the engine has warmed up it turns around very 
slow. > If you wait for an hour or so the starter will act normal again 
:) > > Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James L BURTON > 
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:36 
AM > Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial > > Hello, no I 
havent I think its not worth all of the opposition and the > hassle to 
go with the little outcome of the result. The msd ingnition > system 
has to be on its toes. To have the least effect against my > oringinal 
starter. The header issue isnt worth the gamble when Im just > going to 
use it for cruisins, and some kind of shows .My motor is > allthat and 
im not going risk nothing because everything shiney and new > will make 
you feel that way. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rob van der 
Es > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 
1:46 AM > Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial > > Hi 
James, > > Have you actually found another starter for your 60 already? 
> I am still looking around for the best option you see. > > Thanks, > 
> Robert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James L BURTON > To: 
mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 9:35 PM 
> Subject: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial > > To everybody thank 
you for your support on helping me make a sound > decision on the hi 
output starter, and header for my . There both out > now Im looking for 
some wire wheels , Does anybody know if a ford wire > wheel will fit 
the imperial ? If not can somebody help me ? > No virus found in this 
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Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: > 22-3-2007 > > No virus 
found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > 
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