Hi Dick and Bob, After your messages about missing EFi content from the archives, I did a search through my OLD messages and I did not find anything from the 94-96 time frame but I did find this which I hope is what you are looking for from 1997. I am sending it to the IML for the archives in hopes it might be of help to future folks. I did not clean it up at all. All the best, Jeff Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:21:59 -0400 (EDT) From: ImperialML@xxxxxxx Subject: Fw: ASDM, Analysis, EFI Sent: 8/11/97 2:15 PM Received: 8/11/97 5:30 PM From: bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: Imperial Mailing List, ImperialML@xxxxxxx [The following information has been discovered by some very clever and dedicated folks on the IML - It means that folks with 1981-83 Imperials and Electronic Fuel Injection will be more-likely to have a dependable car. Hurray for the wise folks on the IML! - Tony] From: bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (Dick Benjamin) Tony; The last few days, Jeff Gaurino, Frank C, Mike Bleznyk, Bob Harris and I have been having an off-line discussion about the operation of an important component of the EFI system. Our jump off point was a very thorough analysis that Jeff did back in June, and sent to me for comment. I was too busy to respond until this weekend, but now I have made a few observations about Jeff's work and bounced them back to him and the rest of the group, and between us we have come up with an analysis that is pretty damn close, we think. I have not been copying you and the IML thus far, because we are still arguing about some items, and because our discussions really are not going to make sense unless one has access to Jeff's schematics (which of course you have posted on the web page) and unless one is an EE or close to it. Now, though, I think we are ready for prime time. Close enough to put it out to the whole IML, at least those who have an interest in the frailties and foibles of the '81-83 EFI system. I am going to delete some of the detailed circuit analysis from this message, however, you are welcome to a copy of any and all of our discussions, warts and all, if you want to archive it. What I am sending you now is probably still more detailed than most will want, but some members probably will want to see this level of detail, and the others can just let their eyes glaze over. So, here goes: --- From: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Jeff Guarino <jguarino@xxxxxxxxx Bob Harris <harriswerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Mike Bleznyk <mblez@xxxxxxxx; Frank Cannavale, III <fc3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 10:39 PM Restating Jeff's theory of operation: The ASDM (AKA ASD) connections: pin 1 is solid battery voltage when the starter is cranking, is pulled firmly back to 0 when not cranking, (by the starter solenoid). pin 2 (the output from the ASD) is solid battery voltage when the fuel pumps and EFI system are up and running (ASD makes the decision based on the other 4 inputs) pin 3 is solid battery voltage when the ignition is on (starting or running) pin 4 is the control pump drive signal, which varies from battery voltage to zero depending on how much fuel the system is calling for. It will be solid battery voltage during the initial purge cycle (a second or so) and then settle down to some low value depending on what the open loop program calls for in the CCC. pin 5 is the drive signal to the ignition coil. It will chop from almost 0 to about 6 or 7 volts while the car is running. NOTE WELL THAT THERE IS NO GROUND CONNECTION WIRE TO THE ASDM, rather it relies on the mounting bolt to the fender, and note also that the circuitry is likely to be quite sensitive, since it involves TTl logic NAND gates connected as latching bistable circuits, thus making Bob Harris' recommendation of a separate ground wire to the reference ground for the CCC a mandatory design fix. Those cars still running without this added ground are asking for starting and mysterious cutting out trouble. I would suggest at least a #14 wire right to the ground lug on the right rear of the Intake manifold, where most of the EFI system is grounded. The ASD should be isolated from the body ground at its mounting to prevent noise on the body ground from upsetting the circuit. NORMAL OPERATION OF THE ASD Upon initial power up, the Ignition comes on, then the Cranking signal. The control pump will not be running since its power source (the power module in the hydraulic support assembly) does not receive power until the ASD says so. Therefore the pin 4 input to the ASD is held low by the pump windings, and the ASDM is waiting for the crank signal As soon as that occurs, This pulls in the relay inside the ASD which supplies power to the rest of the EFI system, including the intank fuel pump. The control pump starts to run in the HSA, and its drive signal appears at pin 4 of the ASD. . The pin 5 signal also appears at this time, and if the engine starts, takes over holding up the ASDM in the "ON" state after the cranking signal goes away. Thus the ASD continues to supply power to the system and we are merrily on our way. FAILURE TO START : If the engine does not start, and the cranking persists, the running of the control fuel pump will continue until about 20 seconds elapse, then the ASDM shuts down to avoid hydrostatic (fluid) lock from too much fuel being pumped. The owner only knows his car isn't starting, he doesn't realize all power has been removed from the EFI system including the fuel pumps. Bye and bye, he gets the hint, and releases the key to the IGN position. If he goes back to cranking without cycling the switch to off, the car will crank but it won't fire because the whole system is dead. He has to reset the ASDM circuit to normal by turning the key off for an instant, then the whole process can proceed again. If he does this immediately , ASDM shutdown will occur much quicker this time, since the ASDM has a memory which persists for a minute or so and will prevent pumping more than a few seconds the second and subsequent tries. That is why the control fuel pump (the one inside the air cleaner) runs for about 20 seconds the first time you try, then progressively shorter periods down to only a few seconds or until the car starts. When the car starts, the coil drive signal takes over as detailed above, and the ASD ignores the Crank signal until the next cycle. If for some reason the car stalls, the coil drive signal goes away and the ASD shuts down immediately. If a noise pulse finds its way into the logic circuit, the same thing will happen. The only way to get the engine running again is to turn the key off and restart. --- THIS EXPLAINS THE MYSTERIOUS SHUTTING DOWN OF THE ENGINE DURING NORMAL DRIVING THAT MANY HAVE EXPERIENCED! Add the ground wire and isolate the ASDM box from the fender electrically, as discussed above, to avoid this dangerous possibility. -------------- http://members.aol.com/imperialml ---------------- This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please reply to IMPERIALML@xxxxxxx and your response will be shared with everyone on the list. Private messages (not for public sharing) should have the word "PRIVATE" in the Subject line. Send all attached files (if any) to XXLTONY@xxxxxxx Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:14:36 -0400 (EDT) From: ImperialML@xxxxxxx To: XXLTONY@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Some Service Info - all 81 / 83 EFI Imperials Sent: 8/17/97 11:19 AM From: HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Robert J.Harris) Dick, Read your latest - here's some info, that is general in nature, but applicable to all 318 and 360 LA block engines. The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the rear, horizontal flange area, in front of the distributer mounting. A tube of RTV Sealer, MoPar part 4026070 and part 4105671 will repair that manifold leak see Service Bulletin 09-04-82 for details. It is NOT necessary to remove the manifold to effect the change. For the small piping details in the fuel system within the Support Plate there is a note about avoiding fuel leaks - this is the new Pressure Switch TSB - and in essence it states that you should use Locktite 290 on the threaded ends of the fasteners of each respective joint that you may have disassembled and this will prevent any future fuel leakage. This stuff is availabe at many places. Too bad, the Pressure Switch is NOT available from Chrysler. Bob Harris -------------- http://members.aol.com/imperialml ---------------- This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please reply to IMPERIALML@xxxxxxx and your response will be shared with everyone on the list. Private messages (not for public sharing) should have the word "PRIVATE" in the Subject line. Send all attached files (if any) to XXLTONY@xxxxxxx Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From: ImperialML@xxxxxxx To: XXLTONY@xxxxxxx Subject: Re: 81 FI Problem with Stalling Status: RO Sent: 9/1/97 6:42 PM From: HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Robert J.Harris) >I need some advice in curing a problem that has thrown me. About two months ago my 81 w/ intact FI started stalling during the warm up period. I am defining the warm up period to be about 15 minutes. She starts every morning beautifully and then will stall, usually three times, before she starts running consistently. I have hard wired the fuel shut off module ground. I have installed a new in tank fuel pump. >I have replaced the fuel filters. I have re-calibrated the computer. I have checked the back pressure on the converter. >I need suggestions on what to try next. She will stall on freeways at 65 mph, or at idle, or at a restarts after she cools off some, but she always starts perfectly the first time in the morning and she runs consistently after the first 15-20 minutes and at least 3 stalls in that time period. Hello Carl, I have experienced your problems some years ago and will pass on to you some ideas to stop the problem. My problems always occured after some warm-up period. Upon cooling, it would usually restart. It is my opinion that the fault is Ignition rather than Fuel. During warm-up, when it stops, remove the Air Cleaner Cover and have someone go thru the Start cycle, you should see some fuel squirting from the Spray Bars. It's a good idea to have grounded the secondary wire from the coil to the distributer prior to Start. Two tries may be necessary to get the fuel to spray. Recycle the Ignition key to Off, then repeat. If you get the fuel, proceed to Ignition tests. Remove the 10 Way connector from the rear of the Computer, and connect an ohmeter between connector terminals 5 and 9; you should read 150 to 900 ohms. If yes, connect one ohmeter connector to a good ground, the other to connectors 5 and 9 alternately; there should be no continuity; if there is, disconnect the Pick-Up Coil connector at the Distributer and connect one lead of the ohmeter to ground, the other to each terminal, on the Distributer end of the connector, there should be no continuity. If there is no continuity, check the wire from the Computer to the Pick-Up Coil for a short to ground, this may be an intermittant thing, so carefully trace the path and look for abraided insulation on this wire. If there is continuity, replace the Pick-Up coil. Because you cannot predict when this fault will occur, I have been able to warm the Pick-Up coil with a hair dryer, while the ohmeter is connected to the two wires, and in less than ten minutes, under mild warming, the ohmeter will open and this will indicate that there is a problem within the Pick-Up Coil - replace it. There were a bunch of 81's with this problem and it was due to a bad production run of these coils. By the way, where did you get the new In-Tank Fuel Pump? Let us know how you're doing. Bob Harris -------------- http://members.aol.com/imperialml ---------------- This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please reply to IMPERIALML@xxxxxxx and your response will be shared with everyone on the list. Private messages (not for public sharing) should have the word "PRIVATE" in the Subject line. Send all attached files (if any) to XXLTONY@xxxxxxx To: Imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> From: "Robert J.Harris" <HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: IML: Re: 81 w/FI stalls during warm up Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:29:50 -0600 Hello Carl, First, the 81-83 Service Manual Diagnostics for the EFI System was revised, but never published. There were some errors in the Service Manuals and some tests lead to destruction of both the Combustion Computer as well as the EFI Tester, if you had one. I do have the 83 revised document, but had to edit it to clear up syntax and numbering; I have offered to help IML members if they ask. Your problem is frequent stalling when cold, ( Cold Driveability Tests), and here are some areas to check. THROTTLE STOP SWITCH - Remove ten way connector from CCC, (rear), and connect ohmeter between cavity 7 and ground. Continuity? NO? Connect ohmeter between cavity 7 and the Throttle Stop Switch terminal. If there is continuity, clean contact surface at Throttle Body; if no continuity, repair harness. If there is continuity, check the Heated Air Door itself for failure, (vacuum), the Heated Air Door Sensor, (on the Air cleaner Can), for failure. There is a Delay Valve in the door circuit, check it for closure when vacuum is applied and reopen within 40 seconds when vacuum is released. EGR System - 60 degrees F max. - Apply 15" vacuum to either port of the CVSCC, replace valve if test fails; if ok, check heat riser, (not a viable item if engine is high mileage). STANDBY MEMORY - connect voltmeter to Red wire of three way connector at CCC, (don't disconnect), must read battery voltage, if not, repair harness. There is a resistor in the line - check. AUTO IDLE SPEED MOTOR - Ignition OFF remove connector at Ballst Resistor. Ohmeter should read between 4 and 5 ohms; replace if test fails. There are several additional tests requiring the EFI Tester, let us know how these above go and we'll continue. Do you feel good about the current Cold Idle Speed? Does it stall while under way, or at Stop signs and Red lights? There is also a possible failure in the CCC itself which will not enable the default parameters for an open loop, cod engine mode. Bob Harris ---------- >From: Graduate, Ltd <grad@xxxxxxx> >To: Multiple recipients of list Imperialmailinglist <Imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> >Subject: IML: 81 w/FI stalls during warm up Date: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 2:47 PM >Fellow list members - I am still seeking assistance in solving my stalling problem. The car will stall usually 3 times during the warm up period. It does this at idle or at 65 mph. It has never stalled while I was execrating. In the recent past Dick Benjamin and Robert Harris have sent suggestions . All of these have been carried out, except for a close look at the sensors. >I am now equipped with two voltage meters and one high and one low fuel pressure gauges. I am fumbling some because of a cast on my left hand (one more month) but I am ready to isolate the problem on handed. So far I have begun checking the 5 wires in the fuel shut off module. >I am asking for assistance in getting the most out of every test. In other words I need a plan of attack. I have the shop manual and a seperate copy of the wiring. Most of the parts in the FI system were replaced a few years ago and the car was not driven for 7 years,until I bought it. I have recently replaced the in tank fuel pump and the shut off module (Dick - I know that is not the proper term) and sought out grounds for cleaning. >I have another car so the Imperial can be started in the morning and again in the evening giving me 4-7 stalls to observe each day. >I look forward to any help you can offer. Please explain connections by symbol and color when possible. If I am checking a certain point please specify sufficiently so that I know where to put what. Thank you muchly. Carl Baty San Diego >---------------- http://members.aol.com/imperialml ------------------- This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please reply to ImperialMailingList@xxxxxxx and your response will be shared with everyone on the list. Private messages to the Administrator (and attached files) should be sent to IML-OWNER@xxxxxxx To: Multiple recipients of list imperialmailinglist <imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> Sender: owner-imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx Reply-To: "Imperialmailinglist" <imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> From: "Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: IML: Re: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:18:03 -0700 OK Carl; I think I am the guilty party for the suggestion about bypassing the ASD. Even though it did not make your problem go away, the fact that doing so had no effect on the problem adds to our knowledge about the situation. Now we know that failure of power supplied to the fuel pumps or the EFI/CCC system is NOT the problem. You can put that whole category of investigation on the back burner. If the car stalls when it is just sitting there idling normally, with a good strong steady idle, and then just dies on you, then restarts with no special fiddling (please verify that this is indeed your symptom), I come around to a suggestion Bob Harris made a while ago, namely a possible temperature induced momentary failure in the distributor's pick up coil. I think we talked about this possibility one time before. Did you replace the pickup coil at that time? Bob suggested that if the pickup coil is suspect, one could take a VOM and measure continuity from one wire to the other of the 2 wire pickup coil connector ( it comes out of the side of the distributor, unplug it and connect to the end which goes into the distributor), while heating the coil assembly with a hair dryer. When the coil is OK, you will see a quite low resistance (I forget the number at the moment, but it would be no more than a few hundred ohms, probably much less) and when the coil opens, you would see very large resistance, over 10,000 ohms for sure. This is an easy test to make, and can be done without disturbing any of the settings. I am not absolutely sure this will always identify a failing part, however, perhaps Bob can shed some light on how foolproof this test is. Personally, if I suspect this part, I just replace it with a new one, since they are cheap and relatively easy to change, see procedure below. They are available from NAPA, and possibly other parts sources. You need to remove the reluctor magnet to get at the pickup coil to replace it (it comes only as a complete assembly, already attached to the "breaker" plate). I think it is a good idea to replace both pieces at the same time (pickup coil and magnet), since they are cheap, and you might damage the old magnet getting it off. If you decide to replace these parts yourself, be advised that you will have less trouble in the long run if you pull the distributor to work on it. There is only the one 2 wire coil connector to deal with (after you get the rotor and cap out of your way), but of course you will have to be careful to reinstall the distributor and rotor in the same position that it was in when you removed it, and make sure no one bumps the engine over while it is out, or else you will have to go to plan B to find #1's TDC point. Then you will have to reset the timing (12BTC at idle). Be very cautious when pulling the magnet off the end of the shaft, if you put any more than a few pounds force on it, you can easily damage the bottom thrust washer, which is pretty feeble. It would be best to hold the shaft itself rather than the distributor body to pull the magnet; this is difficult without removing the distributor. Even if you do not disturb the distributor, you will also need to set the gap from the tips of the 8 finned rotating magnet to the pole piece of the pickup coil to .006 ", which will take a non-magnetic feeler gauge. This will be hard to come by, I use a piece of .005" shim stock (brass) and set the gap a little loose. I'd like to hear what Bob has to suggest on this problem too, he has a world of experience with these cars and their teething problems, and I gather this was not unheard of even when the cars were new. I'll be quiet until I hear more. .Dick Benjamin bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >stalling about 3 times after start, but within the first 15 minutes. The temperature where I was working on the car today exceeded 100 degrees so I started with Bob's suggestion that I go back to basics and run the in tank pump, by passing the Automatic Shut Down Valve (Module). Guess >what? IT STALLED ANYWAY. What next Dick? Bob Harris, Your suggestions were up next. Does this finding alter what you are suggesting? >Carl Baty San Diego Grad@xxxxxxx ---------------- http://members.aol.com/imperialml ------------------- This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please reply to ImperialMailingList@xxxxxxx and your response will be shared with everyone on the list. Private messages to the Administrator (and attached files) should be sent to IML-OWNER@xxxxxxx To: Multiple recipients of list imperialmailinglist <imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> Sender: owner-imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx Reply-To: "Imperialmailinglist" <imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> From: "Robert J.Harris" <HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: IML: Re: Re: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:17:46 -0600 ---------- >From: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: Multiple recipients of list imperialmailinglist <imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> >Subject: IML: Re: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up Date: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 11:18 PM >OK Carl; >I think I am the guilty party for the suggestion about bypassing the ASD. >Even though it did not make your problem go away, the fact that doing so had no effect on the problem adds to our knowledge about the situation. Now we know that failure of power supplied to the fuel pumps or the EFI/CCC >system is NOT the problem. You can put that whole category of investigation on the back burner. >If the car stalls when it is just sitting there idling normally, with a good strong steady idle, and then just dies on you, then restarts with no special fiddling (please verify that this is indeed your symptom), I come >around to a suggestion Bob Harris made a while ago, namely a possible temperature induced momentary failure in the distributor's pick up coil. I >think we talked about this possibility one time before. Did you replace the pickup coil at that time? >Bob suggested that if the pickup coil is suspect, one could take a VOM and >measure continuity from one wire to the other of the 2 wire pickup coil connector ( it comes out of the side of the distributor, unplug it and connect to the end which goes into the distributor), while heating the coil >assembly with a hair dryer. >When the coil is OK, you will see a quite low resistance (I forget the number at the moment, but it would be no more than a few hundred ohms, probably much less) and when the coil opens, you would see very large resistance, over 10,000 ohms for sure. This is an easy test to make, and can be done without disturbing any of the settings. I am not absolutely sure this will always identify a failing part, however, perhaps Bob can shed some light on how foolproof this test is. Hello again - Carl and Ben, First I must apologize for the sloppy composition of the text that I sent Carl in response to his needs, I left things out and assumed that he could read between the lines; I was in a hurry. I did not mention the Harris Pick-Up Coil test since Carls' was a Cold Driveability problem. The Pick-Up coils would be prone to failue at any time. My experiences tell me that this problem was due to a large number of these things that were defective when manufactured, then being installed early in the 81 production.There were many complaints - there are lots of "Starts But Stalls" conditions in the Service manuals. The problem was, if you shut-down for a while, the thing would restart and talk about a perplexed mechanic wondering what he did or why there was a complaint in the first place. I've also noted that Chrysler electronic components that are available as rebuilt parts are advertised as "Temperature Tested" at the factory! This all goes to illustrate that it is mandatory to IML 81-83 owners who need help to inform us just what their level of knowledge is. This problem illustrates, more than any other malfunction, that the the various components of this system are interelated such as when you have a No Fuel failure you must realize that the ASD shut it down because there might be a No Spark Failure and you're off looking in the wrong place. Hence my Service Manual text on the Idle Stop Switch, temp and vacuum sensors and faulty damper door operaters. As I said in my first response, there are more stalling diagnostics, but they are not necessarily on a cold engine. Let us know what we need to help. Is your EFI system original, or has the Support Plate been replaced with the up-graded parts? Keep it Goin....Bob Harris >Personally, if I suspect this part, I just replace it with a new one, since >they are cheap and relatively easy to change, see procedure below. >They are available from NAPA, and possibly other parts sources. You need to remove the reluctor magnet to get at the pickup coil to replace it (it comes only as a complete assembly, already attached to the "breaker" plate). I think it is a good idea to replace both pieces at the same time >(pickup coil and magnet), since they are cheap, and you might damage the old magnet getting it off. >If you decide to replace these parts yourself, be advised that you will have less trouble in the long run if you pull the distributor to work on it. There is only the one 2 wire coil connector to deal with (after you get the rotor and cap out of your way), but of course you will have to be careful to reinstall the distributor and rotor in the same position that it >was in when you removed it, and make sure no one bumps the engine over while it is out, or else you will have to go to plan B to find #1's TDC point. Then you will have to reset the timing (12BTC at idle). >Be very cautious when pulling the magnet off the end of the shaft, if you put any more than a few pounds force on it, you can easily damage the bottom thrust washer, which is pretty feeble. It would be best to hold the shaft itself rather than the distributor body to pull the magnet; this >is difficult without removing the distributor. >Even if you do not disturb the distributor, you will also need to set the gap from the tips of the 8 finned rotating magnet to the pole piece of the >pickup coil to .006 ", which will take a non-magnetic feeler gauge. This will be hard to come by, I use a piece of .005" shim stock (brass) and set >the gap a little loose. >I'd like to hear what Bob has to suggest on this problem too, he has a world of experience with these cars and their teething problems, and I gather this was not unheard of even when the cars were new. I'll be quiet >until I hear more. >.Dick Benjamin >bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>stalling about 3 times after start, but within the first 15 minutes. The temperature where I was working on the car today exceeded 100 degrees so I started with Bob's suggestion that I go back to basics and run the in tank pump, by passing the Automatic Shut Down Valve (Module). >Guess >>what? IT STALLED ANYWAY. What next Dick? Bob Harris, Your suggestions were up next. Does this finding alter what you are suggesting? >>Carl Baty San Diego Grad@xxxxxxx ----------------- http://www.imperialclub.com ----------------- This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. 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