Re: IML: Lead additive

["Burt Bouwkamp" <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Here's the answer to when Chrysler removed exhaust valve seat inserts and
when they started hardening the exhaust valve seats. From 1956 to 1972
Chrysler engines (except for hemispherical combustion chamber engines) did
NOT have hardened exhaust valve seats or inserts.

Here is the answer in Bill Weertman's (retired engine Chief Engineer) own
words:

"Exhaust valve seat inserts were not used in the
single rocker shaft, poly head Chrysler and Dodge V8 engines starting with
their introduction for the 1955 model year.  The Plymouth Mound Road V8
followed suit when it was introduced for the 1956 model.

As far as I know the hemi head Chrysler, Dodge and DeSoto V8 engines
continued using exhaust valve seat inserts until they went out of production
in the late 1950s with the advent of the B-RB engines.

Induction hardening of the exhaust valve seats was started on the 1972 RG
Slant Six engine and quickly spread to the other engines - perhaps in the
same model year."

Burt Bouwkamp








----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Alexander" <mistermda@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive


Question to Burt:
This makes sense. I drove my 1954 Imperial from Fla. to California and
subsequently 163,000 miles in the 70's on regular gas. Was it leaded then?
My 1952 Imperial seems to run fine on unleaded.

What year did Chrysler stop putting hardened valve seats in all engines?
Was it 1956, as Paul heard?
Specifically, do you think my 1952 has them?
Michael Alexander

-----Original Message-----
From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Burt Bouwkamp
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:13 PM
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive

In 1949 Chrysler put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all engines. At
that time we did not know that hardened seats were not required with leaded
gas.

Burt Bouwkamp

----- Original Message -----
From: <erwood@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive


> So does this apply to the L head 8 in my 49 Imperial or only to the V8's
that came after?
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: PAUL WENTINK <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > It sounds like what I was told was correct. That means that 1955 models
> > and earlier can be run on unleaded gas without ill effects, unless the
> > heads have been reconditioned or replaced at some point with those from
> >  a '56 model.
> >
> > As far as the "who done it?" I guess we will never know, as he/she is
> > probably in accounting heaven by now.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 7:41 pm
> > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > You reminded me of "the rest of the story".
> >
> > I started at Chrysler in 1949. After two years of on-the-job training I
> > started a regular job as an engineer in the Engine Development
> > Laboratory.
> > My specific job was as a project engineer on the development of the
> > Dodge
> > Red Ram V-8  hemi engine. At that time (1950-51) it was standard
> > practice to
> > put hardened exhaust valve seat inserts in all our engines. Then
> > somebody -
> > I don't know who - discovered that with leaded gasoline the hardened
> > valve
> > seats were not required.'' So - we took the hardened valve seats out to
> > save
> > the money. Then - along came unleaded gasoline and we were in valve seat
> > wear trouble so we induction hardened (cheaper than a hardened insert)
> > the
> > valve seat area.
> >
> > The mystery in all this is - who was smart enough to know/learn that
> > valve
> > seat inserts were not needed with leaded gas?
> >
> > Burt Bouwkamp
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "PAUL WENTINK" <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
> > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 3:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> > This post from Burt corresponds exactly with my understanding of the
> > situation regarding unleaded gas and our cars.
> >
> > I will also add that I have been told that through 1955, Chrysler
> > automobiles were able to withstand unleaded gas. This wasn't
> > deliberate, but rather it was after that the engineers realized that
> > since lead prevented valve and valve seat wear, hardened valves and
> > seats were not necessary. Beginning in 1956, the cylinder heads were
> > changed slightly as a cost saving measure. The engines built from then
> > on required leaded fuel to prevent wear for extended high speed
> > driving. I would like to know if anyone has also heard this or knows it
> > to be true. Remember, lead wasn't added to prevent valve and valve seat
> > wear. It was added to eliminate pre-ignition and increase the octane
> > levels. The fact that it also allowed for a cost reduction in producing
> > engines was a bonus for the bean counters.
> >
> > I drove various Imperials as everyday cars in the '70s & '80s, mostly
> > my '56 & '65 models. It was in the late 1980's that leaded gas vanished
> >  from our area. I began using Bardahl Instead-o-Lead with each fill up.
> > At the time, it was rated as a quality product. Also, the speed limits
> > were Federally regulated at 55, so whether this additive actually
> > worked or not, the engines were not working hard enough to cause much
> > damage due to unleaded gas. I discovered that I was using too much of
> > the product and eventually it caused the cars not to run well. I had
> > the tanks drained and discontinued using it. There are probably two or
> > three unused cases somewhere in my garage.
> >
> > These days, there are 75 mph speed limits, which means some folks are
> > going to drive 80. I think driving our cars using unleaded gas for
> > extended periods at these speeds will cause accelerated valve and valve
> > seat wear. Rather than relying on an extra cost additive, I plan to
> > take it easy on the road. When the cars require valve work, I'll have
> > the cylinder heads reconditioned with hardened valves and valve seats.
> >
> > I believe that this is the only truly correct approach for me to take,
> > particularly since most of my cars are around the point where they
> > would be needing valve work as part of the regular maintenance of the
> > engine anyway.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Burt Bouwkamp <northburt@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:42 pm
> > Subject: Re: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael,
> >
> >
> >
> > When we developed and tested the Chrysler engines in the 1950's and
> > 1960's we did it with a tetra ethyl lead additive (3 cc's per gallon I
> > think) in the gasoline. It worked - in fact the engine relied on the
> > lead deposits to avoid valve seat wear at high engine HP outputs. (Wide
> > open throttle at high engine speeds results in high valve temperature
> > and high speed valve action.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Young engineers - such as myself - did not know that lead was providing
> > this benefit until we started testing engines with "no lead" gasoline.
> > Valve seat recession during testing due to wear required us to
> > harden valve seats or add hardened inserts to production engines to use
> > unleaded gasoline. You probably remember that the auto and petroleum
> > industry used a lead additive - until it was banned - because it was
> > the cheapest way to produce gasoline with the octane rating that we
> > wanted.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know what happens to valve seat wear when you add Marvel
> > Mystery Oil or ATF to the gasoline. I use am STP Lead Additive in the
> > gas tank of my old cars but they are driven so few miles - and usually
> > below 60 MPH - that I doubt that it makes any difference. I only do it
> > because I have personally inspected durability test engines (with
> > around 1,000 hours operation) with more than 1/4" of valve seat wear
> > due to testing with unleaded fuel. If I ever have the engine rebuilt in
> > my 1968 Dodge Charger I will have hardened valve seat inserts added.
> >
> >
> >
> > Burt Bouwkamp
> >
> >
> >
> > ---- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: Michael Alexander
> >
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 1:01 PM
> >
> > Subject: RE: IML: Lead additive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I just bought a bottle of Lead Additive at Advance Auto, which says on
> > the bottle â?ofor older cars which need leaded gasâ??. Anyone have any
> > experience with this product?
> >
> > I guess my choices for the 1952 Imperial are: Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF,
> > or this stuff. Online voting begin!!!
> >
> > Seriously though, thanks,
> >
> > Michael Alexander
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >  From: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gary Wilson
> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:01 PM
> > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know about running a qt of oil thu the tank but ATF works real
> > well because it is a high detergent and helps coat the valves seat like
> > leaded gas use to do.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> >
> > From: YBSHORE@xxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > To: mailing-list-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:17 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: IML: Recession Unleaded Gas: MMO vs. ATF
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fellow Imperialists:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On my 1956 Imperial w/354 Hemi/Torqueflite 3 speed combo, I run a
> > Marvel Mystery Oil blend through the fuel tank at every fill-up
> > according to the specs on the bottle and have had great luck with it [I
> > use it as well in the motor oil] and change the oil quite often, every
> > 1500 miles. I wonder, though, if it is providing the same degree of
> > 'engine maintenance' that the ATF does/would do with a periodic run
> > through. Any thoughts?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/25/2007 9:03:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > randalpark@xxxxxxx writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > like the idea of running a quart of oil through the gas once in a
> > while. I have found that it does improve performance.
> >
> > Paul W.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
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