Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.

From: Christopher H <imperial67@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:29:55 -0700

I humbly have to disagree with that. My '67's original starter exhibited exactly these symptoms as it got near the end of its life after 124,000 miles. Hot starts (meaning any time the engine was at normal temp) became increasingly difficult due to thermal expansion of the starter from the ambient heat of the exhaust and engine, which caused excessive draw due to the increased friction. It took well over a year (which for me was only a couple hundred miles) for the starter to finally (and slowly) crank its last. Thankfully I had a rebuilt unit and my tools in the trunk and a few extra hours in my office garage one Sunday night and I was good to go (which is not to say wrestling a 75-lb starter out of an Imperial is child's play!). And the new starter completely cured the hot starting challenge. Chris in LA 67 Crown 78 NYB Salon On 3/23/07 9:44 AM, randalpark@xxxxxxx at randalpark@xxxxxxx wrote: > Internal parts expansion should NOT be a problem with these cars. If > the engine is getting that hot, it isn't going to run very much longer. > The only cause I have ever experienced with this symptom (starter drag > when warm) on any of my Imperials has been the timing issue. For me, > starter trouble has always simply resulted in a total failure of the > unit, out of the clear blue sky without any warning. > > Paul W. > > -----Original Message----- > From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 8:32 AM > Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp. > > Thanks Paul for your sharing your knowledge! > As always to the point, and very helpful! > > I will give it a try then and back off the timing a little, too see > what happens. > The reason I gave it a little extra adventage is to compensate the > slight power loss that you get when you convert an engine to run on LPG > (or propane as it is called in the US). > You can do this safely because the octane rating of propane is much > higher, so you don't have to worry about pre-ignition (spark knock). > > Another reason for starter drag might be an internal seizure due to > expanding of parts inside under influence of the heat, don't you think? > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx> > To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 4:16 PM > Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp. > >> My feeble mind says that depending on where the engine is when it > stops, > if the ignition is firing, pushing the piston down, while the > starter is > trying to push it up the starter will drag. If too many > pistons are doing > this at the same time, the engine will be difficult > to crank. It can > happen when its cold too, but usually is more > noticeable, and likely to > occur when the engine is warmed up. Over > the years I have been in this > situation a number of times. Correcting > the timing has reduced the load on > the starter. >> >> My father actually once talked a guy he worked with into rebuilding > the > engine in a car that was doing the same thing, after he replaced > the > starter. My father, who is a mechanical engineer, convinced the > guy that > he had a spun bearing, and that the engine was going to > seize, even though > the car ran fine once it started. The new engine > didn't fix the problem. > Further discussion led to the fact that the > guy habitually advanced his > timing, even on his new "long block" > engine, a little bit past factory > specification to get a little extra > "UMPHF". When he backed it off, the > problem went away. >> >> As I have explained before, my knowledge is based on practical > experience. > I am not an engineer, chemist, or scientist. What I share > has worked for > me. I road time my cars, I do not use a light. When > they are too far > advanced, they spark knock, which is damaging to the > engine. They can be > difficult to turn over, particularly when warmed > up. There are several > different problems that can cause this same > symptom. I am suggesting one > idea that might correct it. >> >> In your shoes, I would back off the timing and see if the problem > went > away, before replacing the starter, especially since you know > that the > timing is advanced.. >> >> Paul W. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 5:27 AM >> Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating > Temp. >> >> Sorry Paul, but I don't understand... >> >> How can the timing influence the rotation speed of a starter motor?? >> I must admit that my timing is too advanced hower, it's about 12.5 > degrees > BTDC instead of the recommended 10 degrees. That is because > the engine is > running on propane instead of gasoline. >> Since propane has a much higher octane rating then regular gasoline > it is > safe to advance the timing a little, and it gives the engine > more power. >> >> But I don't understand why this also influence the performance of the >> starter motor when the engine has been warmed up ? >> >> Maybe you can shine a light on it for me :) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx> >> To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:36 PM >> Subject: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp. >> >> That will also happen if the timing is too advanced. Try backing it > off >> a little and see if the problem goes away. Heat shouldn't effect the >> starter that much. >> >> Paul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 2:50 AM >> Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial >> >> OK James, >> >> I understand, maybe the best thing I can do is to find me a reputable >> rebuilder and send him my original starter. >> You see, mine is having problems when it is getting hot. The starter >> spins perfectly when the car is cold, but when the car is driven for > a >> while and the engine has warmed up it turns around very slow. >> If you wait for an hour or so the starter will act normal again :) >> >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James L BURTON >> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:36 AM >> Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial >> >> Hello, no I havent I think its not worth all of the opposition and > the >> hassle to go with the little outcome of the result. The msd ingnition >> system has to be on its toes. To have the least effect against my >> oringinal starter. The header issue isnt worth the gamble when Im > just >> going to use it for cruisins, and some kind of shows .My motor is >> allthat and im not going risk nothing because everything shiney and > new >> will make you feel that way. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Rob van der Es >> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 1:46 AM >> Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial >> >> Hi James, >> >> Have you actually found another starter for your 60 already? >> I am still looking around for the best option you see. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Robert >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: James L BURTON >> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 9:35 PM >> Subject: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial >> >> To everybody thank you for your support on helping me make a sound >> decision on the hi output starter, and header for my . There both out >> now Im looking for some wire wheels , Does anybody know if a ford > wire >> wheel will fit the imperial ? If not can somebody help me ? >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: >> 22-3-2007 >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date: >> 22-3-2007 >> >> > ________________________________________________________________________ > >> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's > free >> from AOL at AOL.com. >> =0 >> >> ----------------- http://www.imperialclub.com ----------------- >> This message was sent to you by the Imperial Mailing List. Please >> reply to mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and your response will be >> shared with everyone. 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