Re: IML: Switching '60 to '66 Brakes

["Rob van der Es" <r.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

@ Paul:

Thanks for your very detailed answer!
I think I will stick to my stock drumbrakes then, it makes sense to
believe they were designed to stop the car safely :)

I am planning to drive the car as much as possible if weather permits.
In my country (the Netherlands) this means during the sommer months only...

So I guess there will be quite a lot of re-adjustments of the brakes
necessary then since they are not self adjusting. But isn't that part of
the fun in owning a classic car?

Since you are pointing out that incorrect adjustments are so dangerous and
you have learned how to adjust them the right way from your father, would
you mind to share your knowledge with me and the other members of the
list?

You see, after replacing the master brake cylinder and the wheel cylinders
I will be faced with the task to adjust the brakes properly.


Thanks a lot in advance,

Robert
1960 Imperial Crown 4 door HT



Op Do, 23 februari, 2006 7:19 pm, schreef randalpark@xxxxxxx:
> My fleet of Imperials all have their original brake systems. The years of
> the cars range from 1955 through 1968. I have not studied any one of them
> with the specific idea of switching brake systems between model years.
>
>> From my readings over the years about this issue, I believe that the
>> quickest swap for 1960 would be with a '63 or possibly '64 parts car.
>> There was a major change in 1965 which makes it necessary to swap out
>> the entire third member, and possibly other drive line paraphernalia.
>> There may have been other changes made for '66, but I don't own one to
>> compare. 1963 was the year that the brake system was changed over to
>> the more common design. Backing plates may require some work to
>> accomodate this, especially rears, I don't know for sure.
>
> Three years ago I spent several months rebuilding the brake systems on
> all of my Imperials. At that time, parts were readily available for all
> model years through my local (but excellent) auto parts store. Were drums
> required, I obtained them from Bob Hoffmiester. I did not make any
> conversions, but rather stuck with the stock systems. I don't know how
> much you plan to drive your '60 Imperial. I don't drive any of mine very
> much any more, so I don't mind adjusting my brakes manually once in a
> while. Self-Adjusting brakes would be the biggest reason to make the
> change that you are asking about. Even they should have their adjustments
> checked manually from time to time. They do, however, employ the more
> managable "star-wheel adjuster" that some shops might still be use to
> encountering.
>
> Other than the need for frequent manual adjustments, '57 through '62
> brakes systems are just fine. Our cars were engineered to be the way that
> they are on purpose. I have grown tired of the idea that just because
> people don't like them, that the brakes on 1957 through 1962 Imperials
> are no good. They are good, when used as intended, and are more than
> adequate if properly maintained, and driven sensibly. If the owner
> depends on outside help for maintenance, there can be a problem. Our cars
> are over 40 years old, so shops are no longer familiar with how to adjust
> the brakes. ADJUSTMENTS DONE INCORRECTLY ARE VERY DANGEROUS. I prefer to
> adjust my own anyway. I learned that from my father, who adjusted his
> own, and trusted the original brakes on our 1960 Imperial to stop our car
> with our whole family contained within.
>
> That doesn't mean that someone who is innovative and skilled shouldn't do
> what ever they want to improve the performance of their car. I object to
> the statement that seems to come through that our cars MUST be converted
> in order to be safe. That is simply false. There were big and heavy high
> powered cars built in the middle 1950's that had inadequate brakes. Even
> they can be safe if the driver knows his vehicle, and drives accordingly.
> By the middle 1960's, the industry had corrected this, and thankfully,
> things continued to improve after that as well.
>
> Paul W.
>
>
>
> Paul W.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob van der Es <r.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:47:29 +0100 (CET)
> Subject: Re: IML: re. Disc V Drum Brakes
>
>
>
> @ Paul and others:
>
>
> Is it wise then to convert 57 to 62 drumbrakes to the 1966 version?
> And if so, are the 66 parts still available?
> I own a 1960 Imperial and I am planning a major brake overhaul with all
> new wheelcylinders and a new master cylinder, would it be an option then to
> convert rightaway to the 1966 system?
>
> Robert van der Es
>
>
>
>
> Op Do, 23 februari, 2006 2:09 am, schreef randalpark@xxxxxxx:
>
>> I wasn't going to say anything on this, but I can't help it.
>>
>>
>>
>> The '61 has different brakes than the '66. While they were good, the
>> '66
>> was better. The brakes on the '61 required frequent manual adjustment.
>> Depending on the type of driving, this could mean as often as every 800
>>  miles. Back in those days, oil changes were about every 1,000 miles,
>> so a quick brake adjustment wasn't a big deal. In all the cases of
>> griping that I have heard about the brakes on '57 through '62, none of
>> the owners were adjusting them as often as recommended, let alone more
>> often than that (which isn't a bad idea).
>>
>> A '66 Imperial has about the best drum brakes ever made. They stop the
>> car just fine. They are also self adjusting. If the '66 Imperial's
>> brakes are in top shape, and the driver is having multiple instances of
>> near misses on the road, the problem isn't the stopping distance of the
>> car, but more related to what is sitting behind the steering wheel.
>>
>> The is NO techniogical advance that can take the place of sensible
>> driving. While we should do absolutely everything that we can to make
>> sure that our cars will stop correctly, a big money brake conversion on
>> a car that already has great brakes is not going to solve the problem.
>>
>> Paul W.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lib596@xxxxxxx
>> To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:06:19 EST
>> Subject: IML: re. Disc V Drum Brakes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Whilst I have no reason to doubt the theory behind Dicks description of
>>  the physics I still have to say that from a purely practical point of
>> view, the disc brake / dual M/C conversion  on my '61 has made a
>> distinct improvement in the braking characteristics of the car. It is
>> not only the shorter stopping distance but the feel and sensitivity of
>> the pedal which has improved.
>>
>> Now I will freely admit that by the time I did the conversion, I had
>> developed serious hot spots on the front drums which did nothing to
>> improve their stopping power. In addition, the improved sensitivity may
>>  be partly due to the new M/C but even when the drums were perfect and
>> all four wheels were quite capable of locking up, there is no doubt in
>> my mind that the discs have been a major improvement. There seems to be
>> more to braking than simple friction. It is about how the car handles
>> under sharp deceleration. Perhaps some of this improvement arises from
>> the necessary addition of a proportioning valve that governs the
>> pressure ratio between the front and rear brakes.
>>
>> Apart from the improved braking characteristics, the other advantage is
>>  simpler maintenence. No more painstaking adjustments and fiddly
>> bleeding. On the downside, the dust from the pads turns your white wall
>> tyres into gray walls in no time at all. Easy enough to clean but
>> annoying all the same.
>>
>> Just some observations from someone who has direct experience of both
>> drums and discs.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>>
>> Tony V.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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