IML: the missing? 81-83 imps info from jeffs IML archives

[Jeff Ingraham <jeff_ingraham@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Dick and Bob,
  After your messages about missing EFi content from
the archives, I did a search through my OLD messages
and I did not find anything from the 94-96 time frame
but I did find this which I hope is what you are
looking for from 1997.   I am sending it to the IML
for the archives in hopes it might be of help to
future folks.
I did not clean it up at all.
All the best,
Jeff


Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:21:59 -0400 (EDT) From:
ImperialML@xxxxxxx
Subject:	Fw: ASDM, Analysis, EFI
Sent:	8/11/97 2:15 PM
Received: 8/11/97 5:30 PM
From:	bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To:	Imperial Mailing List, ImperialML@xxxxxxx

[The following information has been discovered by some
very clever and dedicated folks on the IML - It means
that folks with 1981-83 Imperials and Electronic Fuel
Injection will be more-likely to have a dependable
car. Hurray for the wise folks on the IML! - Tony] 

From: bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (Dick Benjamin) 

Tony;

The last few days, Jeff Gaurino, Frank C, Mike
Bleznyk, Bob Harris and I have been having an off-line
discussion about the operation of an important
component of the EFI system. Our jump off point was a
very thorough analysis that Jeff did back in June, and
sent to me for comment. 
I was too busy to respond until this weekend, but now
I have made a few observations about Jeff's work and
bounced them back to him and the rest of the group,
and between us we have come up with an analysis that
is pretty damn close, we think. I have not been
copying you and the IML thus far, because we are still
arguing about some items, and because our discussions
really are not going to make sense unless one has
access to Jeff's schematics (which of course you have
posted on the web page) and unless one is an EE or
close to it.

Now, though, I think we are ready for prime time.
Close enough to put it out to the whole IML, at least
those who have an interest in the frailties and
foibles of the '81-83 EFI system. I am going to delete
some of the detailed circuit analysis from this
message, however, you are welcome to a copy of any and
all of our discussions, warts and all, if you want to
archive it. What I am sending you now is probably
still more detailed than most will want, but some
members probably will want to see this level of
detail, and the others can just let their eyes glaze
over.

So, here goes:

---

From: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Jeff
Guarino <jguarino@xxxxxxxxx
Bob Harris <harriswerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Mike Bleznyk
<mblez@xxxxxxxx; Frank Cannavale, III
<fc3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 10:39 PM 

Restating Jeff's theory of operation:

The ASDM (AKA ASD) connections:

pin 1 is solid battery voltage when the starter is
cranking, is pulled firmly back to 0 when not
cranking, (by the starter solenoid). 

pin 2 (the output from the ASD) is solid battery
voltage when the fuel pumps and EFI system are up and
running (ASD makes the decision based on the other 4
inputs)

pin 3 is solid battery voltage when the ignition is on
(starting or running)

pin 4 is the control pump drive signal, which varies
from battery voltage to zero depending on how much
fuel the system is calling for. It will be solid
battery voltage during the initial purge cycle (a
second or so) and then settle down to some low value
depending on what the open loop program calls for in
the CCC.

pin 5 is the drive signal to the ignition coil. It
will chop from almost 0 to about 6 or 7 volts while
the car is running. 

NOTE WELL THAT THERE IS NO GROUND CONNECTION WIRE TO
THE ASDM, rather it relies on the mounting bolt to the
fender, and note also that the circuitry is likely to
be quite sensitive, since it involves TTl logic NAND
gates connected as latching bistable circuits, thus
making Bob Harris' recommendation of a separate ground
wire to the reference ground for the CCC a mandatory
design fix. Those cars still running without this
added ground are asking for starting and mysterious
cutting out trouble.

I would suggest at least a #14 wire right to the
ground lug on the right rear of the Intake manifold,
where most of the EFI system is grounded. The ASD
should be isolated from the body ground at its
mounting to prevent noise on the body ground from
upsetting the circuit. 

NORMAL OPERATION OF THE ASD

Upon initial power up, the Ignition comes on, then the
Cranking signal. The control pump will not be running
since its power source (the power module in the
hydraulic support assembly) does not receive power
until the ASD says so.

Therefore the pin 4 input to the ASD is held low by
the pump windings, and the ASDM is waiting for the
crank signal 

As soon as that occurs, This pulls in the relay inside
the ASD which supplies power to the rest of the EFI
system, including the intank fuel pump. The control
pump starts to run in the HSA, and its drive signal
appears at pin 4 of the ASD.

. The pin 5 signal also appears at this time, and if
the engine starts, takes over holding up the ASDM in
the "ON" state after the cranking signal goes away.

Thus the ASD continues to supply power to the system
and we are merrily on our way.

FAILURE TO START :

If the engine does not start, and the cranking
persists, the running of the control fuel pump will
continue until about 20 seconds elapse, then the ASDM
shuts down to avoid hydrostatic (fluid) lock from too
much fuel being pumped. The owner only knows his car
isn't starting, he doesn't realize all power has been
removed from the EFI system including the fuel pumps.
Bye and bye, he gets the hint, and releases the key to
the IGN position. If he goes back to cranking without
cycling the switch to off, the car will crank but it
won't fire because the whole system is dead. He has to
reset the ASDM circuit to normal by turning the key
off for an instant, then the whole process can proceed
again. If he does this immediately , ASDM shutdown
will occur much quicker this time, since the ASDM has
a memory which persists for a minute or so and will
prevent pumping more than a few seconds the second and
subsequent tries. That is why the control fuel pump
(the one inside the air cleaner) runs for about 20
seconds the first time you try, then progressively
shorter periods down to only a few seconds or until
the car starts. 

When the car starts, the coil drive signal takes over
as detailed above, and the ASD ignores the Crank
signal until the next cycle. If for some reason the
car stalls, the coil drive signal goes away and the
ASD shuts down immediately. If a noise pulse finds its
way into the logic circuit, the same thing will
happen. The only way to get the engine running again
is to turn the key off and restart.

---

THIS EXPLAINS THE MYSTERIOUS SHUTTING DOWN OF THE
ENGINE DURING NORMAL DRIVING THAT MANY HAVE
EXPERIENCED! Add the ground wire and isolate the ASDM
box from the fender electrically, as discussed above,
to avoid this dangerous possibility.




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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:14:36 -0400 (EDT) From:
ImperialML@xxxxxxx
To: XXLTONY@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Some Service Info - all 81 / 83 EFI Imperials

Sent: 8/17/97 11:19 AM
From: HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Robert J.Harris) 

Dick,
Read your latest - here's some info, that is general
in nature, but applicable to all 318 and 360 LA block
engines. 

The intake manifolds are prone to leak air at the
rear, horizontal flange area, in front of the
distributer mounting. A tube of RTV Sealer, MoPar part
4026070 and part 4105671 will repair that manifold
leak see Service Bulletin 09-04-82 for details. It is
NOT necessary to remove the manifold to effect the
change.

For the small piping details in the fuel system within
the Support Plate there is a note about avoiding fuel
leaks - this is the new Pressure Switch
TSB - and in essence it states that you should use
Locktite 290 on the threaded ends of the fasteners of
each respective joint that you may have disassembled
and this will prevent any future fuel leakage. This
stuff is availabe at many places. Too bad, the
Pressure Switch is NOT available from Chrysler.

Bob Harris

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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From:
ImperialML@xxxxxxx
To: XXLTONY@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: 81 FI Problem with Stalling Status: RO
Sent: 9/1/97 6:42 PM
From: HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Robert J.Harris) 

>I need some advice in curing a problem that has
thrown me. About two months ago my 81 w/ intact FI
started stalling during the warm up period. I am
defining the warm up period to be about 15 minutes.
She starts every morning beautifully and then will
stall, usually three times, before she starts running
consistently. I have hard wired the fuel shut off
module ground. I have installed a new in tank fuel
pump. 

>I have replaced the fuel filters. I have
re-calibrated the computer. I have checked the back
pressure on the converter. 

>I need suggestions on what to try next. She will
stall on freeways at 65 mph, or at idle, or at a
restarts after she cools off some, but she always
starts perfectly the first time in the morning and she
runs consistently after the first 15-20 minutes and at
least 3 stalls in that time period.

Hello Carl,

I have experienced your problems some years ago and
will pass on to you some ideas to stop the problem. My
problems always occured after some warm-up period.
Upon cooling, it would usually restart. 

It is my opinion that the fault is Ignition rather
than Fuel. During warm-up, when it stops, remove the
Air Cleaner Cover and have someone go thru the Start
cycle, you should see some fuel squirting from the
Spray Bars. It's a good idea to have grounded the
secondary wire from the coil to
the distributer prior to Start. Two tries may be
necessary to get the fuel to spray. Recycle the
Ignition key to Off, then repeat. If you get the fuel,
proceed to Ignition tests.

Remove the 10 Way connector from the rear of the
Computer, and connect an ohmeter between connector
terminals 5 and 9; you should read 150 to 900 ohms. If
yes, connect one ohmeter connector to a good ground,
the other to connectors 5 and 9 alternately; there
should be no continuity; if there is,
disconnect the Pick-Up Coil connector at the
Distributer and connect one lead of the ohmeter to
ground, the other to each terminal, on the Distributer
end of the connector, there should be no continuity.
If there is no continuity, check the wire from the
Computer to the Pick-Up Coil for a short to ground,
this may be an intermittant thing, so carefully trace
the path and look for abraided insulation on this
wire. If there is continuity, replace the Pick-Up
coil.

Because you cannot predict when this fault will occur,
I have been able to warm the Pick-Up coil with a hair
dryer, while the ohmeter is connected to the two
wires, and in less than ten minutes, under mild
warming, the ohmeter will open and this will indicate
that there is a problem within the
Pick-Up Coil - replace it. There were a bunch of 81's
with this problem and
it was due to a bad production run of these coils. 

By the way, where did you get the new In-Tank Fuel
Pump? 

Let us know how you're doing.

Bob Harris

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To: Imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> 
 From: "Robert J.Harris"
<HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: IML: Re: 81
w/FI stalls during warm up Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997
17:29:50 -0600

Hello Carl,
First, the 81-83 Service Manual Diagnostics for the
EFI System was revised, but never published. There
were some errors in the Service Manuals and some tests
lead to destruction of both the Combustion Computer as
well as the EFI Tester, if you had one. I do have the
83 revised document, but had to edit it to clear up
syntax and numbering; I have offered to help IML
members if they ask.

Your problem is frequent stalling when cold, ( Cold
Driveability Tests), and here are some areas to check.
THROTTLE STOP SWITCH - Remove ten way connector from
CCC, (rear), and connect ohmeter between cavity 7 and
ground. Continuity? NO? Connect ohmeter between cavity
7 and the Throttle Stop Switch terminal. If there is
continuity, clean contact surface at Throttle Body; if
no continuity, repair harness. If there is continuity,
check the Heated Air Door itself for failure,
(vacuum), the Heated Air Door Sensor, (on the Air
cleaner Can), for failure. There is a Delay Valve in
the door circuit, check it for closure when vacuum is
applied and reopen within 40 seconds when vacuum is
released.
EGR System - 60 degrees F max. - Apply 15" vacuum to
either port of the CVSCC, replace valve if test fails;
if ok, check heat riser, (not a viable item if engine
is high mileage).
STANDBY MEMORY - connect voltmeter to Red wire of
three way connector at CCC, (don't disconnect), must
read battery voltage, if not, repair harness. There is
a resistor in the line - check. AUTO IDLE SPEED MOTOR
- Ignition OFF remove connector at Ballst Resistor.
Ohmeter should read between 4 and 5 ohms; replace if
test fails. There are several additional tests
requiring the EFI Tester, let us know how these above
go and we'll continue. Do you feel good about the
current Cold Idle Speed? Does it stall while under
way, or at Stop signs and Red lights? There is also a
possible failure in the CCC itself which will not
enable the default parameters for an open loop, cod
engine mode. 

Bob Harris




----------
>From: Graduate, Ltd <grad@xxxxxxx>
>To: Multiple recipients of list Imperialmailinglist 
<Imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx>
>Subject: IML: 81 w/FI stalls during warm up Date:
Tuesday, October 14, 1997 2:47 PM

>Fellow list members - I am still seeking assistance
in solving my stalling problem. The car will stall
usually 3 times during the warm up period. It does
this at idle or at 65 mph. It has never stalled while
I was execrating. In the recent past Dick Benjamin and
Robert Harris have sent suggestions . All of these
have been carried out, except for a close look at the
sensors.

>I am now equipped with two voltage meters and one
high and one low fuel pressure gauges. I am fumbling
some because of a cast on my left hand (one more
month) but I am ready to isolate the problem on
handed. So far I have begun checking the 5 wires in
the fuel shut off module. 

>I am asking for assistance in getting the most out of
every test. In other words I need a plan of attack. I
have the shop manual and a seperate copy of the
wiring. Most of the parts in the FI system were
replaced a few years ago and the car was not driven
for 7 years,until I bought it. I have recently
replaced the in tank fuel pump and the shut off module
(Dick - I know that is not the proper term) and sought
out grounds for cleaning.

>I have another car so the Imperial can be started in
the morning and again in the evening giving me 4-7
stalls to observe each day. 

>I look forward to any help you can offer. Please
explain connections by symbol and color when possible.
If I am checking a certain point please specify
sufficiently so that I know where to put what. Thank
you muchly. Carl Baty San Diego


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To: Multiple recipients of list imperialmailinglist
<imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> Sender:
owner-imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx Reply-To:
"Imperialmailinglist" <imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx>
From: "Dick Benjamin" <bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: IML: Re: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up Date:
Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:18:03 -0700


OK Carl;
I think I am the guilty party for the suggestion about
bypassing the ASD. Even though it did not make your
problem go away, the fact that doing so had no effect
on the problem adds to our knowledge about the
situation. Now we know that failure of power supplied
to the fuel pumps or the EFI/CCC system is NOT the
problem. You can put that whole category of
investigation on the back burner.

If the car stalls when it is just sitting there idling
normally, with a good strong steady idle, and then
just dies on you, then restarts with no special
fiddling (please verify that this is indeed your
symptom), I come around to a suggestion Bob Harris
made a while ago, namely a possible temperature
induced momentary failure in the distributor's pick up
coil. I think we talked about this possibility one
time before. Did you replace the pickup coil at that
time?

Bob suggested that if the pickup coil is suspect, one
could take a VOM and measure continuity from one wire
to the other of the 2 wire pickup coil connector ( it
comes out of the side of the distributor, unplug it
and connect to the end which goes into the
distributor), while heating the coil assembly with a
hair dryer.

When the coil is OK, you will see a quite low
resistance (I forget the number at the moment, but it
would be no more than a few hundred ohms, probably
much less) and when the coil opens, you would see very
large resistance, over 10,000 ohms for sure. This is
an easy test to make, and can be done without
disturbing any of the settings. I am not absolutely
sure this will always identify a failing part,
however, perhaps Bob can shed some light on how
foolproof this test is. 

Personally, if I suspect this part, I just replace it
with a new one, since they are cheap and relatively
easy to change, see procedure below. 

They are available from NAPA, and possibly other parts
sources. You need to remove the reluctor magnet to get
at the pickup coil to replace it (it comes only as a
complete assembly, already attached to the "breaker"
plate). I think it is a good idea to replace both
pieces at the same time (pickup coil and magnet),
since they are cheap, and you might damage the old
magnet getting it off.

If you decide to replace these parts yourself, be
advised that you will have less trouble in the long
run if you pull the distributor to work on it. There
is only the one 2 wire coil connector to deal with
(after you get the rotor and cap out of your way), but
of course you will have to be careful to reinstall the
distributor and rotor in the same position that it was
in when you removed it, and make sure no one bumps the
engine over while it is out, or else you will have to
go to plan B to find #1's TDC point. Then you will
have to reset the timing (12BTC at idle). 

Be very cautious when pulling the magnet off the end
of the shaft, if you put any more than a few pounds
force on it, you can easily damage the bottom thrust
washer, which is pretty feeble. It would be best to
hold the shaft itself rather than the distributor body
to pull the magnet; this is difficult without removing
the distributor. 

Even if you do not disturb the distributor, you will
also need to set the gap from the tips of the 8 finned
rotating magnet to the pole piece of the pickup coil
to .006 ", which will take a non-magnetic feeler
gauge. This will be hard to come by, I use a piece of
.005" shim stock (brass) and set the gap a little
loose.

I'd like to hear what Bob has to suggest on this
problem too, he has a world of experience with these
cars and their teething problems, and I gather this
was not unheard of even when the cars were new. I'll
be quiet until I hear more.

.Dick Benjamin
bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

>stalling about 3 times after start, but within the
first 15 minutes. The temperature where I was working
on the car today exceeded 100 degrees so I started
with Bob's suggestion that I go back to basics and run
the in tank pump, by passing the Automatic Shut Down
Valve (Module). 
Guess
>what? IT STALLED ANYWAY. What next Dick? Bob Harris,
Your suggestions were up next. Does this finding alter
what you are suggesting?
>Carl Baty San Diego Grad@xxxxxxx


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To: Multiple recipients of list imperialmailinglist
<imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx> Sender:
owner-imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx Reply-To:
"Imperialmailinglist" <imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx>
From: "Robert J.Harris" <HarrisWerks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: IML: Re: Re: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:17:46 -0600


----------
>From: Dick Benjamin <bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To:
Multiple recipients of list imperialmailinglist 
<imperialmailinglist@xxxxxxx>
>Subject: IML: Re: 81 w/FI Stalls During Warm up Date:
Wednesday, October 15, 1997 11:18 PM 

>OK Carl;

>I think I am the guilty party for the suggestion
about bypassing the ASD. 

>Even though it did not make your problem go away, the
fact that doing so had no effect on the problem adds
to our knowledge about the situation. Now we know that
failure of power supplied to the fuel pumps or the 
EFI/CCC
>system is NOT the problem. You can put that whole
category of investigation on the back burner.

>If the car stalls when it is just sitting there
idling normally, with a good strong steady idle, and
then just dies on you, then restarts with no special
fiddling (please verify that this is indeed your
symptom), I 
come
>around to a suggestion Bob Harris made a while ago,
namely a possible temperature induced momentary
failure in the distributor's pick up coil. 
I
>think we talked about this possibility one time
before. Did you replace the pickup coil at that time?

>Bob suggested that if the pickup coil is suspect, one
could take a VOM 
and
>measure continuity from one wire to the other of the
2 wire pickup coil connector ( it comes out of the
side of the distributor, unplug it and connect to the
end which goes into the distributor), while heating
the 
coil
>assembly with a hair dryer.

>When the coil is OK, you will see a quite low
resistance (I forget the number at the moment, but it
would be no more than a few hundred ohms, probably
much less) and when the coil opens, you would see very
large resistance, over 10,000 ohms for sure. This is
an easy test to make, and can be done without
disturbing any of the settings. I am not absolutely
sure this will always identify a failing part,
however, perhaps Bob can shed some light on how
foolproof this test is. 


Hello again - Carl and Ben,

First I must apologize for the sloppy composition of
the text that I sent Carl in response to his needs, I
left things out and assumed that he could read between
the lines; I was in a hurry. 

I did not mention the Harris Pick-Up Coil test since
Carls' was a Cold Driveability problem. The Pick-Up
coils would be prone to failue at any time. My
experiences tell me that this problem was due to a
large number of these things that were defective when
manufactured, then being installed early in the 81
production.There were many complaints - there are lots
of "Starts But Stalls" conditions in the Service
manuals. The problem was, if you shut-down for a
while, the thing would restart and talk about a
perplexed mechanic wondering what he did or why there
was a complaint in the first place. I've also noted
that Chrysler electronic components that are available
as rebuilt parts are advertised as "Temperature
Tested" at the factory!

This all goes to illustrate that it is mandatory to
IML 81-83 owners who need help to inform us just what
their level of knowledge is. This problem illustrates,
more than any other malfunction, that the the various
components of this system are interelated such as when
you have a No Fuel failure you must realize that the
ASD shut it down because there might be a No Spark
Failure and you're off looking in the wrong place.
Hence my Service Manual text on the Idle Stop Switch,
temp and vacuum sensors and faulty damper door
operaters. As I said in my first response, there are
more stalling diagnostics, but they are not
necessarily on a cold engine. 

Let us know what we need to help. Is your EFI system
original, or has the Support Plate been replaced with
the up-graded parts? Keep it Goin....Bob Harris




>Personally, if I suspect this part, I just replace it
with a new one, 
since
>they are cheap and relatively easy to change, see
procedure below. 

>They are available from NAPA, and possibly other
parts sources. You need to remove the reluctor magnet
to get at the pickup coil to replace it (it comes only
as a complete assembly, already attached to the
"breaker" plate). I think it is a good idea to replace
both pieces at the same 
time
>(pickup coil and magnet), since they are cheap, and
you might damage the old magnet getting it off.

>If you decide to replace these parts yourself, be
advised that you will have less trouble in the long
run if you pull the distributor to work on it. There
is only the one 2 wire coil connector to deal with
(after you get the rotor and cap out of your way), but
of course you will have to be careful to reinstall the
distributor and rotor in the same position that 
it
>was in when you removed it, and make sure no one
bumps the engine over while it is out, or else you
will have to go to plan B to find #1's TDC point. Then
you will have to reset the timing (12BTC at idle). 

>Be very cautious when pulling the magnet off the end
of the shaft, if you put any more than a few pounds
force on it, you can easily damage the bottom thrust
washer, which is pretty feeble. It would be best to
hold the shaft itself rather than the distributor body
to pull the magnet; 
this
>is difficult without removing the distributor. 

>Even if you do not disturb the distributor, you will
also need to set the gap from the tips of the 8 finned
rotating magnet to the pole piece of 
the
>pickup coil to .006 ", which will take a non-magnetic
feeler gauge. This will be hard to come by, I use a
piece of .005" shim stock (brass) and 
set
>the gap a little loose.

>I'd like to hear what Bob has to suggest on this
problem too, he has a world of experience with these
cars and their teething problems, and I gather this
was not unheard of even when the cars were new. I'll
be 
quiet
>until I hear more.

>.Dick Benjamin
>bondotmec@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

>>stalling about 3 times after start, but within the
first 15 minutes. The temperature where I was working
on the car today exceeded 100 degrees so I started
with Bob's suggestion that I go back to basics and run
the in tank pump, by passing the Automatic Shut Down
Valve 
(Module).
>Guess
>>what? IT STALLED ANYWAY. What next Dick? Bob Harris,
Your suggestions were up next. Does this finding alter
what you are suggesting?
>>Carl Baty San Diego Grad@xxxxxxx


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