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 55 Dodge Neutral Safety SwitchJump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144   Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192  Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Ernie: I presume that your 55 Dodge has a Powerflite. Powerflite cars should have a 4 lug starter solenoid mounted to the left fender liner. The neutral safety switch provides a ground for the current from the starter lug on the ignition switch. No ground = no solenoid pulling power from the battery directly to the hot lug on the starter.  HOWEVER: *IF* the neutral safety switch lug is grounded via an external wire or a fault in the 4 lug solenoid *OR* the solenoid is a 3 lug from a manual trans 55-56 Dodge (or Plymouth, etc) *OR* the 4 lug has an internal short, you will be able to power the starter in any gear, not just neutral. I installed a Cole Hersee - Insulated Intermittent Duty SPST Solenoid 12V - 24023 https://www.partdeal.com/cole-hersee-intermittent-duty-spst-solenoid... Something like this (to show the four lugs)  REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69708&... Good luck. If you need more help, let me know and I will try.  Edited by 56D500boy 2024-02-20 5:15 PM | ||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Burnemup - 2024-02-21 8:23 AM My Solenoid is mounted upside down from yours, and I think the wire for my Neutral Safety Switch is on the wrong side of the solenoid. I'll try moving the wire to the other post and see what happens. Ernie: I don't think that that will make any difference. The two small lugs are just the trigger signal and the ground (via the Neutral Safety Switch). It shouldn't matter which is which. Ditto the HOT in (from the battery) and HOT out (to the starter Hot lug). I am suspecting that the trigger circuit is shorting to ground inside your solenoid. Edited by 56D500boy 2024-02-22 1:08 PM | ||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Burnemup - 2024-02-24 8:34 AM Yes you were right. I switched the wires on my solenoid and nothing changed. I think I'll buy a new Solenoid and see if that works. My guess is that a new 4 lug intermittent duty 12V solenoid will cure your issue Ernie. There are plenty of NOS Cole Hersee 24023 solenoids out there: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l131... | ||
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| mstrug |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 6560   Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | |||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Burnemup - 2024-03-06 12:51 PM Well I put a new solenoid on and it does the same thing as my old one. Now I'm at a loss on what the problem is. It still starts in gear. What do I do now? Assuming that your new solenoid is a four lug (2 small, 2 large) solenoid, that is strange. Based on the diagrams below, the issue must be (somehow) your solenoid is grounding without involving the neutral safety switch (which is wrong). First thing I would try would be to disconnect the solenoid from the inner fender - but leave the input from the ignition and the connection to the neutral safety switch intact (and the large gauge wires from the battery and to the starter - leave them). Put a piece of wood (1 x 2 or 1/2" plywood) under the solenoid to electrically insulate it from the body (ground) and try starting the engine, first in neutral and then in a gear (with your foot on the brake). It should start in neutral but it SHOULD NOT start in gear. If it doesn't start in gear, the problem is with the attachment of the solenoid to the fender liner. *IF* it does start in gear, the wire between the small lug on the solenoid and the neutral safety switch has frayed and it is exposing bare wires to body/frame metal and grounding out, taking the electrical place of the job that the neutral safety switch should take. The solution to that problem would be to replace the wire between the solenoid and the neutral safety switch. Edited by 56D500boy 2024-03-06 5:13 PM (55PlymouthStartingGeneratingIgnitionAndHorn_1024.jpg) (55PlymouthStartingGeneratingIgnitionAndHorn_StartingCircuitDetail.jpg) Attachments ----------------  55PlymouthStartingGeneratingIgnitionAndHorn_1024.jpg (75KB - 87 downloads) 55PlymouthStartingGeneratingIgnitionAndHorn_StartingCircuitDetail.jpg (58KB - 87 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Perhaps another "obvious" thing that I should have thought of earlier, is the plunger on the neutral safety switch could be stuck *IN*, creating a "permanent" ground. Edited by 56D500boy 2024-03-06 7:55 PM (FSMNeutralSafetySwitchIlustration.jpg) (1704283_MechanicalNeutralSafetySwitch_Small.jpg) Attachments ---------------- FSMNeutralSafetySwitchIlustration.jpg (85KB - 80 downloads) 1704283_MechanicalNeutralSafetySwitch_Small.jpg (92KB - 85 downloads) | ||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Burnemup - 2024-03-09 8:40 AM Ok, I unbolted the solenoid from the fender as you suggested. I put a rag under it. I turned the key and nothing! In Neutral or in gear! I then bolted it back on the fender and it started in Neutral and gear. I'm going to run a new wire and see if that changes anything. On both of the diagrams show that the soleniod has to be grounded, that makes sense after my test! The hunt goes on! Hmm...I am very surprised by that Ernie. I can't think why the solenoid itself needs to be grounded (to the fender). This style of "solenoid" it really just a relay (there is no physical mechanism that is moves). The trigger circuit of this "solenoid"/relay has a minor inout current of 12V power coming into one of the two minor lugs on the solenoid case from the ignition switch. This trigger current is grounded through the neutral safety switch to the car frame via the transmission, the engine and the engine ground strap (to the frame). Totally independent (in my mind) to the attachment of the solenoid/relay to the fender/body/frame. Burnemup - 2024-03-09 9:00 AM Another thing I noticed is the my old and my new Neutral Safety Switch does not have the O-ring gasket. That may be the problem! I am 99.995% sure that O-ring is just there to seal the transmission oil from leaking past the Neutral Safety Switch. It is NOT electrical. At the same level of confidence, I believe that the neutral safety switch grounds through the threads of the switch into the transmission (and so on), *WHEN* the central plunger is pushed in by the neutral arm of the valve body comb. On that basis, I think your next steps involve running a new wire from the non-ignition wire small lug on the fender solenoid/relay down to the neutral safety switch. Since you (or your mechanic) will need to access the neutral safety switch at that point anyway, I strongly suggest removing the neutral safety switch and checking that the switch plunger is not stuck *IN*. If you have the car on a hoist and the car is level side to side, you might lose some ATF out the switch hole while you examine/replace the switch. Take appropriate actions (rag, cork, Dutch boy thumb, etc). *IF* you are working from the garage floor, I was able to remove and replace my 56 Dodge's Powerflite Neutral Safety Switch without losing any fluid by jacking the car on the driver's side frame, placing jack stands under the frame and crawling under the car to remove the switch. There was enough side to side slope that no ATF left the Powerflite. (The location of the neutral safety switch on the A-466 Torqueflite is slightly different). View of a Powerflite (mine back in 2016/17) with the Neutral Safety Switch removed, showing the neutral arm of the valve body comb that pushes on the tip of the NSS plugger with the transmission in Neutral. | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Burnemup - 2024-03-09 8:40 AM Ok, I unbolted the solenoid from the fender as you suggested. I put a rag under it. I turned the key and nothing! In Neutral or in gear! I then bolted it back on the fender and it started in Neutral and gear. I'm going to run a new wire and see if that changes anything. On both of the diagrams show that the soleniod has to be grounded, that makes sense after my test! The hunt goes on! Not sure why this is *BUT* after poking around Youtube for a bit, I found a comparison of an internally grounded 4 lug solenoid and an Isolated/Externally grounded 4 lug solenoid. They look the same but what you want is an externally grounded solenoid. What I am pretty sure now that you have is an internally grounded solenoid that grounds through the metal frame of the solenoid and its attachment to the body (fender liner). I think those were used on Fords. Mopars had the externally grounded version. Try this video, especially around the 4:30 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty6dOGh8RFU Edited by 56D500boy 2024-03-09 4:36 PM (TestingANonIsolatedCoil_WithGroundThroughTheMountingCase.jpg) (TestingAnIsolatedCoil_NOGroundThroughTheMountingCase.jpg) (TestingAnIsolatedCoil_GroundThroughExternalGroundLikeANeutralSafetySwitch.jpg) Attachments ---------------- TestingANonIsolatedCoil_WithGroundThroughTheMountingCase.jpg (95KB - 85 downloads) TestingAnIsolatedCoil_NOGroundThroughTheMountingCase.jpg (111KB - 99 downloads) TestingAnIsolatedCoil_GroundThroughExternalGroundLikeANeutralSafetySwitch.jpg (104KB - 91 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Ernie: Further to my suggestion that I think that you have an internally grounded solenoid, I further suggest that the Cole Hersee 24023 or an NOS 1692 659 is what you need. (ElectricalSystemGeneralSchematicShowingSectionForStarterRelay.jpg) (FenderMountedStarterSolenoidPN_1692659.jpg) (1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert1.jpg) (1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid.jpg) (1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert2.jpg) (1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert3.jpg) (1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert4.jpg) (1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert5.jpg) (ColeHersee24023InsulatedIntermittent12VStarterRelay_Annotated.jpg) Attachments ---------------- ElectricalSystemGeneralSchematicShowingSectionForStarterRelay.jpg (140KB - 78 downloads) FenderMountedStarterSolenoidPN_1692659.jpg (175KB - 85 downloads) 1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert1.jpg (55KB - 81 downloads) 1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid.jpg (46KB - 76 downloads) 1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert2.jpg (82KB - 83 downloads) 1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert3.jpg (123KB - 91 downloads) 1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert4.jpg (75KB - 83 downloads) 1692659_MoparStarterSolenoid_Advert5.jpg (73KB - 93 downloads) ColeHersee24023InsulatedIntermittent12VStarterRelay_Annotated.jpg (109KB - 86 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Further to the above, I have created a diagram that hopefully better explains how an insulated Mopar 1692 659 starter solenoid/switch works. I also found out that the 1692 659 solenoid was used all the way through to 1960. Things changed in 1961. Note also, from the above, it is easy to mistake an insulated Mopar 4 lug/pole solenoid for an un-insulated Ford Style 4 lug/pole solenoid that ground through the frame of the solenoid. They look the same but function completely differently. See below for "Ford-style" diagram. Edited by 56D500boy 2024-03-11 11:17 PM (4 Pole Starter solenoid Wiring Diagram_55-60MoparAutomaticStyle.jpg) (FenderMountedStarterSolenoidPN_1692659_1692658_1960.jpg) (4 Pole Starter solenoid Wiring Diagram _FordStyle.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 4 Pole Starter solenoid Wiring Diagram_55-60MoparAutomaticStyle.jpg (143KB - 93 downloads) FenderMountedStarterSolenoidPN_1692659_1692658_1960.jpg (149KB - 84 downloads) 4 Pole Starter solenoid Wiring Diagram _FordStyle.jpg (137KB - 84 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Better Mopar 4 lug diagram (better clarification about the power to the coil) (I would have edited the above but I apparently missed the 999 minute window (???)) (4 Pole Starter solenoid Wiring Diagram_55-60MoparAutomaticStyle.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 4 Pole Starter solenoid Wiring Diagram_55-60MoparAutomaticStyle.jpg (149KB - 89 downloads) | ||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Burnemup - 2024-03-19 8:21 AM OK, I bought a Cole Hersee 24023 Intermittent Solenoid. I had to send the Neutral Safety Switch back because it was bad. We bench tested the new Solenoid and it seems to be good. So the story goes on! Ernie: I thought that we had lost you.  In the interim, I did a separate stand alone post about the two main types on intermittent four lug/pole starter solenoids, i.e. the internally grounded FORD type and the externally grounded Mopar type. I concluded that your issue was either you had a FORD type solenoid that grounded constantly through the solenoid bracket or your NSS was stuck in (or otherwise faulty). Maybe both? Anyway, I hope that you get it sorted soon. My 4 lug/pole post: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=79232&... | ||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Ernie: The ground is completed when the plunger is pushed *IN* by the little arm in the Powerflite transmission when you have the "N" button pushed in. When you jack the car up on the driver's side and install a jack stand under the frame, the tilt should be enough to prevent leakage of ATF out of the NSS hole when you remove the switch. You should see this when the "N" button is pushed in. | ||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| ronbo97 |
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Expert Posts: 4110  Location: Connecticut | Just noticed this thread. I'm curious as to why a lot of the recommendations refer to a 1956 setup when Burnemup's Dodge is a 55. Maybe if you had the correct starter relay, you wouldn't be going thru all this grief ? Ron (Starter and Horn Relays sm.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Starter and Horn Relays sm.jpg (181KB - 63 downloads) | ||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | ronbo97 - 2024-05-13 9:14 AM Just noticed this thread. I'm curious as to why a lot of the recommendations refer to a 1956 setup when Burnemup's Dodge is a 55. Maybe if you had the correct starter relay, you wouldn't be going thru all this grief. Maybe. From my point of view, since Ernie has a 12V alternator, he must be using a 12V not a 6V starter solenoid. Furthermore, the correct 6V solenoid for a 55 Dodge or Plymouth with a Powerflite transmission is 1605 499. A 1605 499 looks identical to the four lug 12V relays and not like your 55 Desoto relay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-starter-solenoids-vintage-mopar-dodge-ply... Edited by 56D500boy 2024-05-13 1:15 PM (1955Dodge_PlymouthStarterSolenoid_eBay_1605499.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1955Dodge_PlymouthStarterSolenoid_eBay_1605499.jpg (127KB - 58 downloads) | ||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Burnemup - 2024-05-25 10:33 AM Should I insolate the Solenoid then see if it works? Hmm... I thought by now that you would have done that already. That said, run a wire from the small terminal to which the NSS is attached at the solenoid to a ground (e.g. the negative battery terminal), put the Powerflite transmisson in neutral and try to start the car on the key. If the engine does NOT turn over, check the connections from the battery to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the starter and try again. If the engine does turn over, the solenoid is fine. If it does not, then the solenoid needs replacing (which I thought you did already). And then there is the NSS which started this thread. Good luck. Report back. | ||
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| Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9903 Location: So. Cal | |||
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| Burnemup |
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Veteran Posts: 144 Location: Simi Valley, CA | |||
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| 56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10192 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Ernie: You were working on this back in April before I took off for 5 weeks in Europe (back on May 24th) and you are STILL working on this?? It can't be that hard. Something is wrong with this picture. You originally came into this thread (that you started) suggesting that you could start the engine in any gear, even neutral. Now you are saying that "it still does not start in neutral or in gear". (???) As Nathan (Powerflite) suggested previously, you need to get out a multimeter and start checking for voltage(s) and continuity. *IF* you have the correct four lug solenoid (the type the grounds through the Neutral Safety Switch), there should be absolutely no need to worry about whether it is grounding or whether you need to isolate it from the fender liner. A proper Mopar-style four lug solenoid *ONLY* grounds through the Neutral Safety Switch (NSS) on your car's Powerflite automatic transmission. What is the model number or part number of the four lug solenoid that you are trying to make work? Maybe you have Ford solenoid (or ??) Because of your reported change in starting situation, I am curious at to whether you even have 12 V at the large input lug on the solenoid. Likewise, do you have 12 V at one of the small terminal post when you get a helper to turn the ignition switch to start? Edited by 56D500boy 2024-06-15 1:08 PM | ||
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| Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9903 Location: So. Cal | |||
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