|
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
 
Location: Rochester, NY | My 58 Plymouth came with a 1964 poly 318 and aluminum case Torqueflite when I bought it 8 years ago. Just like when I got it…it’s again giving me trouble. Can’t push reverse button all the way in after motor warms up so I lose reverse. When engine is cold it engages fine and reverse works fine as well. I changed transmission oil a few times now…first time was to see if new oil would fix this problem and it did. The second time I changed oil was due to transmission leak I created by changing oil the first time. All the while I was able to push reverse button in and had reverse. Now…a few years later after second oil change and fixing leak (with more expensive ribbed rubber pan seal)…I’m back to same issue. No reverse…can’t push button in to engage after warm up. Reverse engages fine right after fresh cold start. Anybody have a clue as to what could be wrong? I remember first time I changed trans. oil ~ 6 years ago the trans oil was red but had thin layer of gray sludge and some fine metal debris stuck on pan floor…last trans.oil change (~2 years ago) it looked bright red and very little sludge/debris if at all. Any insight at all…much appreciated. Thank you guys, Bob
Edited by furvedere 2023-05-29 12:44 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9900
  
Location: Lower Mainland BC | .
Sounds (to me) like you might need check the shift cable adjustment at the transmission before you do much more. If it is off a bit but you can engage reverse when cold but not when hot and things have expanded (changed positions), a cable adjustment check might solve the problem.
Even if it doesn't you can cross that one off the list of potential issues/solutions.
https://mymopar.com/service-manuals/
Edited by 56D500boy 2023-05-29 1:47 PM
 (64MoparTorquefliteShiftCableAdjustment_1.jpg)
 (64MoparTorquefliteShiftCableAdjustment_2.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 64MoparTorquefliteShiftCableAdjustment_1.jpg (146KB - 59 downloads)
64MoparTorquefliteShiftCableAdjustment_2.jpg (148KB - 55 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | Thanks very much 56D500boy. I did not adjust the shift cable like this. I hope this is it! Really appreciate the advice/posting the adjustment procedure. I’ll follow up here let you know if it worked…thanks, Bob |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal | Are you using the original '58 Torqueflite PB shifter or was a later shifter installed? To me, adjustment shouldn't change with temperature; more likely temperature is affecting the shift cable and causing binding. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
| I think, and again taxing my memory, the old Torqueflite A466 vs the the 904 that was typically behind a 318, if the origional push button box is being used the shift cable travel will not be great enough for the 904. Check it out.
Del |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal | A '64 poly 318 would have been mated to a 727, the 904 was only used behind the 273.
Since the '58 shift cable can't be used with any aluminum TF, I have to assume that the later cable was used with the original shifter which has no cable travel issues.
Edited by 57chizler 2023-05-31 1:09 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
| I have a 1974 valiant 318 with a 904 and. ‘72 318LA engine coupled to a 904.
Just saying.
Del
Edited by dels56 2023-05-31 8:15 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9900
Location: Lower Mainland BC | But a 64 318 is wide body "A" engine. 1972 and 1974 318s were LA engines, related to the first LA engine, the 273 (from 1964 Valiants).
Not trying to argue, just trying to find common ground.
My dad had a 1965 Plymouth Fury III with the wide-body "A" 318. He pulled a travel trailer with it. I suspect that it had a 727.
I had a 1968 Fury I with an LA 318 and I guessing a 904.
Apples and oranges.
I also had an 1985 Plymouth Caravelle V8 Canadian copy car. It had 4 bbl Thermoquad/Lean burn LA 318. No idea what the transmission was.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal |
To clarify, NO POLY 318 EVER HAD A 904 TRANS FACTORY INSTALLED. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | I have not performed the adjustment yet. Finishing up gas flush on my 58 DeSoto which I created a post on as well. Anyways, in this 58 Belvedere is a 1964 poly 318 with an apparent matching transmission using original push buttons. Right after I bought it, I found numbers on lip of trans. driver side and it checked out to be a 64 727. It had a very short shifter cable on it though. I was fortunate to find a longer one which worked out much better. It was at this time I installed/adjusted it to what I thought was correct…NOT to what 56D500boy has graciously posted. Problem is…trans. did same thing before I went to longer cable. Back then it no reverse when motor reached operating temperature (couldn’t fully push button in to engage reverse) with short cable…problem went away for a few years… now it’s back. As previously mentioned, fluid has been changed a few times since then too. Can only hope trans. cable wasn’t adjusted properly back then either. Thanks guys, Bob
Edited by furvedere 2023-06-04 11:16 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal | If the trans came with a short shift cable, it came from a column shift car which was not available in '64...the valve body for the column/console car is different than the push button and so is the end of the shift cable. To determine what you have, remove the NSS and shift to Neutral then look at the end of the inside lever to see if there are one or two contacts. (red arrows)
Edited by 57chizler 2023-06-04 5:11 PM
 (Roostercombs_arrows.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
Roostercombs_arrows.jpg (156KB - 64 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | 57chizler - 2023-06-04 5:00 PM
If the trans came with a short shift cable, it came from a column shift car which was not available in '64...the valve body for the column/console car is different than the push button and so is the end of the shift cable. To determine what you have, remove the NSS and shift to Neutral then look at the and of the inside lever to see it there is one or two contacts.
Don’t know what you really mean. I’m sorry. I do believe what you’re saying (NSS) is the neutral safety switch? I don’t believe there is one. It has a Fury steering column in it as it’s still brown. I remember seeing the wire for it just hanging there. Was wondering where it went and I identified it with a schematic I found somewhere back in the day. Anyways, the car will start in any gear so I know that it’s been messed with and is not right. I’m just not up on all this stuff like you…unfortunately. Still I’ve managed to keep this car going since I bought it 8 years ago…and my DeSoto too as I’ve owned it for 13…You guys on FL sure have helped a lot and I thank you all. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9900
Location: Lower Mainland BC | .
He is saying NSS = Neutral Safety Switch
When you remove this:
Do you see this (one lever? or two ?)
REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69708&...
Edited by 56D500boy 2023-06-04 8:34 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | Thanks guys. I mentioned the steering column because last time I messed with a NSS it was inside at the base of the steering column. I’m very long winded in my typing…sorry…don’t think you guys read it all. I’ll get her up in the air later today and hopefully learn something. I wish I could post photos here. Use to with photo bucket but that’s long gone.
Later: Got under there. I see the NSS…there’s no wire hooked up to it…just as I thought. There’s a long gray wire coming off positive side of battery just tie wrapped up in engine compartment that I suspect may go to it. Is this switch supposed to get 12v? I’ll take it out and try to determine if there’s two…or one actuators.
Edited by furvedere 2023-06-05 12:35 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 580
| I wouldn't hook up a positive wire to the neutral safety switch.
I believe the NSS wire would ground when the button on the switch is pushed in by the gear selector inside the transmission.
That sends a ground signal to the drivers side solenoid that lets the solenoid know the transmission is in neutral and the ignition can now be enabled. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal |
The NSS provides a ground for the starter relay that was used in '64. Like Zeke said, the NSS in '58 is a combo of the engine NSS and the start switch in the shifter. When installed, the switch inside at the base of the steering column is the backup light switch |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | Whoever installed this 64 motor/transmission decided not to hook up NSS. Not sure why but perhaps I can figure that out eventually. I always store the car in neutral therefore I always start it in neutral so it’s not a big deal to me but it’d be nice to have a failsafe. The long gray wire off the positive side of the battery that’s not being used…is obviously not it then. Sounds like it needs a ground from the starter relay then.
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 580
| 57chizler - 2023-06-05 1:13 PM
The NSS provides a ground for the starter relay that was used in '64. Like Zeke said, the NSS in '58 is a combo of the engine NSS and the start switch in the shifter. When installed, the switch inside at the base of the steering column is the backup light switch
Does a 1958 Plymouth use a start switch in the shifter (neutral button) ?
The reason I ask is my 1957 Dodge Sierra has (had) the start switch as the neutral button.
My 1958 Dodge Coronet uses the ignition key, like a modern car, to start.
I don't know if a 1958 Plymouth would be different than a 1958 Dodge.
(Edit)- My 1958 Dodge has the PowerFlite , which is why it uses a key start.
Edited by local2Ed 2023-06-06 7:33 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9900
Location: Lower Mainland BC | .
I am currently in the process of installing a neutral starting switch in my 1956 Dodge which I have already converted from Powerflite to Torqueflite.
As far as know, the neutral starting switch, wherein the "N" button on the shifter module becomes the starter button, was only available on 1957 and
1958 Chryslers, Imperials and Dodges. No Desotos and no Plymouths. That said, if you added all the components of the neutral starter switch system,
you would be able have the feature on a Desoto or Plymouth.
REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=74501&...
Edited by 56D500boy 2023-06-06 2:03 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | local2Ed - 2023-06-05 8:58 PM
...(Edit)- My 1958 Dodge has the PowerFlite , which is why it uses a key start.
Interesting. I didn't know that the powerflite couldn't use the neutral start button. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9900
Location: Lower Mainland BC | Powerflite - 2023-06-06 5:58 AM
local2Ed - 2023-06-05 8:58 PM
...(Edit)- My 1958 Dodge has the PowerFlite , which is why it uses a key start.
Interesting. I didn't know that the powerflite couldn't use the neutral start button.
*IF* a person was clever, you could probably figure out a way for a neutral starting switch to work on PowerFlite.
The trick is on the Neutral Start Button Torqueflite shifter box, the neutral sliding plate is two-layers, one to engage the gear selection bar and one to push longer and engage
the neutral starting switch mounted at the rear of the shifter box.
None of this would impact the no reverse when hot issue though. 
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 101
Location: Palm Beach County Florida | In 1963, I was working at a Sinclair station and we towed in a 1957 Dodge wagon that belonged to one of our customers. It had a fire in the engine compartment. The customer did not want to pay to have it fixed and he signed the title over to the shop in exchange for the tow bill. The shop owner and his brother worked on it in their spare time and when it was back running, they used the Dodge for a shop car. I remember it had a neutral button start, the first time I had ever seen one.
The transmission, I think a Torqueflite, would slip into reverse when it was left idling in neutral, like when warming it up to defrost the windows or when running into the parts house to pick up a part. I had to be careful where I parked since the parking brake was soaked with transmission fluid.
Also it had dangerous brakes. Three times when stopping, the car pulled right. On the forth application, it pulled left. I cannot guess how many times the brothers changed the shoes, cylinders and cut the drums...the brakes were no different. I was only the gas attendant then and just learning the trade. Now, with 60 years experience, I am thinking a brake hose problem.
The Dodge was still running there when I left for military service in 1968.
Edited by JedRhule 2023-06-06 12:29 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 580
| 56D500boy - 2023-06-06 11:00 AM
Powerflite - 2023-06-06 5:58 AM
local2Ed - 2023-06-05 8:58 PM
...(Edit)- My 1958 Dodge has the PowerFlite , which is why it uses a key start.
Interesting. I didn't know that the powerflite couldn't use the neutral start button.
*IF* a person was clever, you could probably figure out a way for a neutral starting switch to work on PowerFlite.
The trick is on the Neutral Start Button Torqueflite shifter box, the neutral sliding plate is two-layers, one to engage the gear selection bar and one to push longer and engage
the neutral starting switch mounted at the rear of the shifter box.
None of this would impact the no reverse when hot issue though.
Don't know why one would want to get away from just turning the key to start. |
|
| |
|
Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13045
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Totally cool? |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | I wasn’t sure if fluid would pour out to look under NSS. Sure enough it started dripping when I loosened it. I did not want to empty trans. of oil so I tightened back up. On to the cable adjustment. I adjusted as per directions but could not push R button in after adjustment so I adjusted dial little by little to get R to push in, stay in and engage. Basically I believe got back right back to about where it was (originally)…and I was able to push R button in again. I checked…had drive…had reverse…so I took it for a short ride brought up to operating temp. and lost ability to push R button in again. Took back into garage put back on lift and basically adjusted dial CCW/cable back in little by little like 2 holes at a time. Now…with engine hot of course, I was able to get R button to push in again and stay in (engage) but car would not move backwards. Basically, when I adjusted to get R button to push in and stay in (engage) I get neutral. Something else has to be wrong. I’m bummed. Worth a try though. Not sure how to go about it now. Any suggestions sure would be welcome. Time to drain fluid and look under NSS? |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9900
Location: Lower Mainland BC | .
Seems like you are getting close to finding the adjustment sweet spot.
Have a look at this photo of a 57 Windsor valve body to note the subtletys of how the shifter comb and its detents work (I assume that a 64 TF will be somewhat similar):
PLUS another 64 TF reference to check out:
https://www.web.imperialclub.info/Articles/64Features/Trans/trans.ht...
Edited by 56D500boy 2023-06-06 4:09 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 580
| On my 1957 Dodge Sierra when I pressed the neutral start switch I would have to wiggle the N button around to get it to make contact, crank,no crank, crank,start.
I just unplugged it from under the dash and mounted a momentary button switch under the dash. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | Went through adjustment again this morning. Very straight forward. I’m alone so I use a long piece of wood to keep R button depressed. Seems like it should work but still doesn’t once it warms up. I removed NSS/put in Neutral…hard to tell if there’s 2 contacts in there or not. Contact is not exactly in center of hole looks off to the right a little. I wish I could post a photo. I don’t know. I’m thinking I should remove pan and see what the heck could possibly be interfering when she gets hot…but obviously can’t get it hot once I do that. I’d like to if possible get my phone up in there mount it somehow…view NSS hole and go through all the push buttons. Maybe I could then see if there’s 2 contacts in there or just one. That could be tricky… |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | I did get my phone up there and went through all the gears. I only saw ONE contact. Prior…as previously mentioned, I went through adjustment procedure using by pressing in R firmly……First thing I noticed with N depressed…the contact was definitely NOT right in center of NSS hole. With NSS still removed I decided to adjust again, this time putting contact in center of NSS hole with N depressed. We’ll see how that goes. Putting fluid back in now.
Edited by furvedere 2023-06-07 2:05 PM
|
|
| |
|
Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13045
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Pull the pan instead of filling it up. There's no other safe way to see that the springloaded ball is bottoning in all the positions on the crescent.
The geometry is normally ok, but something might have happened over the years.
 (64 no reverse.png)
Attachments
----------------
64 no reverse.png (37KB - 59 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | Well, took car out for test drive tonight after setting cable adjustment by lining up NSS actuator in center of NSS switch hole. I would think this is the best way to adjust. There’s only one actuator in there. I refilled trans. with filtered used oil that came out. Anyways…no reverse again after only 1.5 mile ride down the road. Can’t push R button all the way in to engage. When I left driveway R worked just fine. I’m going to drain oil and replace w/new filter now. That’s what fixed it last time. If it does…what does this tell you? Why would my R need/depend on new oil/new filter. Needs a rebuild?
Edited by furvedere 2023-06-13 11:01 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3393
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Try adjusting the reverse band while the pan is down. Could also be the reverse apply servo seals.
Edited by Shep 2023-06-14 10:34 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal |
Can't see how fluid/filter would prevent the R button from being pushed. Only way to know is to disconnect the cable from the shifter and manipulate the cable by hand. If the cable becomes difficult to move after a warmup, the problem is likely in the cable. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | Thanks Shep…Thanks 57chizler…it’s going to take me a bit to get back to it but at least I now have some more things to try. I appreciate your help. Will get back to you on what I find out…
Bob |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | I’m going to refill transmission…what are you guys using now a days? Think I’m going to add some Lucas Tranny additive too. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 9654
Location: So. Cal | Type F |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
| Back in the days of Powerflite and Torqueflite (A466) Chrysler used type “A”. Ford had their type “F” I think today Mopar markets theirs as ATF+4. Dexron VI is as good as it gets for old and new. I have in my Powerflite and 904. No problems. Every oil company has a version of Dexron.
Del |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3393
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Amen on Dexron, used in my 64 Maxwedge race car, 1500 runs, no major failure. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal | dels56 - 2023-06-28 3:56 PM
Every oil company has a version of Dexron.
Del
Yes, but you'll notice that Dexron is now followed by a Roman numeral which means the fluid has been "reformulated" for modern transmissions with overdrive and lockup converters which the older transmissions don't have. Simply put, the new fluids intentionally cause more slippage. "No problems" anecdotal experiences are just that, anecdotal...I could fill this page with fluids that have been use with "no problems".
Type F has remained pretty much the same since it's introduction and is available in less expensive house brands. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3393
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Correct, Dex111 is what you need. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal |
My comments referred to the original Dexron with no Roman numeral...probably not available anymore. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3393
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Nope, your right, been updated many times from the original. |
|
| |
|
Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13045
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Been running Dexron III since 2007, no issues.
Don't try anything newer than III |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | I have been running Dexron 111 in it. Went out and bought Type F and poured in along with a quart of Lucas. Still have the same problem. Took it out last night to a local car cruise. The car is quite the attention getter but no reverse when she gets warm/hot. I don’t get it. I ask all the mopar guys out there. No one else has ever heard about a problem like this either. It’s about a half hour ride to this cruise. Took quite a while for me to be able to push the R button in again…probably 2 hours… but by the time I left the cruise, I was able to engage R and had reverse again. Beginning to think it just needs a rebuild. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3393
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Look at my post about reverse band adjustment and new seals in the reverse servo, I'd try that first, not a hard job. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 291
Location: Rochester, NY | Well, I did the reverse band adjustment this time and when I first dropped the pan probably 6 years ago now too. Servo seals huh? I’ll have to look that procedure up. Just so you know…and everyone else too…right about 3-4 min. after warm up…I physically cannot get the R button to push all the way in. It goes almost all the way and it stays in but does not go completely in…and the neutral button still stays in/engaged as I try to get R button all the way in. It’s like there’s something in there that’s in the way…but when it cools off, it works perfectly.
Edited by furvedere 2023-07-02 9:19 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3393
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Yeah, certainly that is your first thing to correct. |
|
| |
|
Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13045
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Try pulling the N out while pressing in R.
It might be a problem with the mechanism |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal | I hate it when I realize I'm getting old and "senior moments" are becoming more frequent.
I should have figured out the problem here from the git go, there is a device called the "Reverse blocker" in the valve body transfer plate, this device is energized whenever the car is in a forward gear...at a very low speed the blocker pops up and blocks the manual valve from being placed in the Reverse position. Once forward motion ceases, it should retract by spring pressure.
The fluid pressure that energizes the blocker comes from the governor pressure circuit so, once the car stops there should be no governor pressure and the blocker should de-energize. So, the problem is either high governor pressure at a standstill (can be checked with a gauge) or the blocker itself is sticking in its bore as the valve body warms up.
Edited by 57chizler 2023-07-02 3:51 PM
 (Blocker.PNG)
Attachments
----------------
Blocker.PNG (41KB - 62 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3776
Location: NorCal | This is the location of the governor pressure test port. With the transmission in Drive and the parking brake applied, there should be no more than 2 psi pressure here.
 (Test Port.PNG)
Attachments
----------------
Test Port.PNG (18KB - 58 downloads)
|
|
| |
1964 Torqueflite: No reverse when hot
