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Changing roof on 61 Belvedere Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | I have discovered some rot on the section of roof on 61 Belvedere coupe. Some on the front also. Where trim meets with rubber seal. I have a coupe donor car with good roof. How hard is it to change roof on FL car? Would I be better off trying to weld up many rust holes? Can anybody point me in the right direction of a video or thread where this has been done? | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9893 Location: So. Cal | I have the same issue on my '58 Fireflite. I also have a complete replacement roof too. After much deliberation, I decided that it was much better to just weld up the rust area in sections. If you try to replace the whole roof, you open a whole can of worms in trying to get it positioned right to make the windows fit properly after you are done. It's a ton of work too. Likewise, if you try to replace all the rust, all at once, you can easily weld your panel in the wrong position and cause it to warp and look like crap. So my plan is to just weld in smaller sections that won't cause changes to the overall positioning of the roof, and take your time doing it. Keep the heat to a bare minimum and stay off the large flat section as much as possible. If you do end up causing a warp, a good shrinking disc will come to your rescue. | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8953 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhGXSM3MZEQ&list=PLW6iSb8vPbYApdBI1J... and there are a ton of others on youtube ------------------------------------later | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | What Nathan said. I don't know the extend of rust, but changing a roof is not an easy task. You will certainly have to weld something up, to keep the rest of the body from collapsing without the roof, which is the most important part in an unibody. | ||
Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | Thanks for the replies. I have not pulled front/rear windows yet. I can see and probed and there is a rust line all the way across the back window Waiting to get it in my garage for before winter. The restoration coupe is fairly straight and solid with bad roof. Donor coupe is rotten all over except some reason has good roof? I’m a pretty good welder, but have zero body work experience. I’m kinda worried about warping large flat roof area with too much welding. Will make roof replacement a plan B in case I botch the welding. Will post pics of roof when I get windows out. I have for the front the window framing cut out from a 61 Newport. Should I try to use it for patches or just make them from scratch? Those Fitzee videos are pretty well done. | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8953 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | eirther way you're goin to have a ton of welding! but the safest way would be patch spot by spot . go to youtube and watch some sheet metal mig or tig welding to get the gist of it , then do some practicing . it won't be long and you'll get to hang of it . biggest thing is don't be scared of it-----------------------------------------later | ||
mikes2nd |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5054 | lets see pics first... yes a roof is a pita... a lot of work | ||
Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | Sorry,Can’t post pics from my device. Have not removed windows or rubbers yet,but appears widespread across top. The side drip rails are good. Pics from another site. https://www.forcbodiesonly.com/mopar-forum/threads/changing-out-roof... Edited by Apollo 61 2022-11-18 4:36 PM | ||
Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | Would a roof replacement involve just cutting roof at Pilar’s and rewelding around at splice after lots measuring and bracing? Or does it involve lots of spot weld drilling and telescoping inside pillar? | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8445 Location: Perth Australia | I did a roof repair on my dodge I built. (dodge lh roof repair 001s.jpg) (dodge lh roof repair 003s.jpg) (dodge lh roof repair 019s.jpg) (dodge lh roof repair 033s.jpg) (dodge lh roof repair 037s.jpg) (dodge lh roof repair 040s.jpg) (Dodge rust 1s.jpg) Attachments ---------------- dodge lh roof repair 001s.jpg (230KB - 86 downloads) dodge lh roof repair 003s.jpg (231KB - 90 downloads) dodge lh roof repair 019s.jpg (172KB - 86 downloads) dodge lh roof repair 033s.jpg (214KB - 86 downloads) dodge lh roof repair 037s.jpg (171KB - 100 downloads) dodge lh roof repair 040s.jpg (166KB - 89 downloads) Dodge rust 1s.jpg (108KB - 86 downloads) | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | Apollo 61 - 2022-11-18 1:21 PM Sorry,Can’t post pics from my device. Have not removed windows or rubbers yet,but appears widespread across top. The side drip rails are good. Pics from another site. https://www.forcbodiesonly.com/mopar-forum/threads/changing-out-roof... That is still close, I guess within 1/2", to the window edge. By all means, patch it! Try to avoid cutting too deep into the flat section of the roof. It will be no fun, but replacing the roof can, or will be a nightmare. Even if you weld braces to the body to keep it rigid, it will very likely distort somewhat. When you cut the last section, even with the bracing, it will probably separate with a loud bang..... Edited by 1960fury 2022-11-18 5:55 PM | ||
22mafeja |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 701 Location: Finland | It depends on how rusty the roof is overall where it is not rusted through. There is no sense patching up a roof if it is possible the same operation has to be done after a couple of years imo. Replacing a roof isn`t a job for an beginner but it is not difficult really. You just have to be patient and make many measurements and put in temporary braces where it is needed. Off course you have to ensure that the replacement roof isn`t molested in any way before you start cutting.. | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | If it is patched right, it will last the live of the car. Same could be said about the welds needed for roof replacement. If you don't t know what you are doing, it will start to rust again. | ||
w.weiland |
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Expert Posts: 1510 Location: Lordstown, Ohio | Doing collision repair for 26 + years a roof is a very easy replacement. Pretty much easier then a quarter panel. Once windows are out drill out spot weld til you hit base metal on the car. Donor go all walY thru. Unlike newer cars you have no bonding adhesives to contend with. Once separated set replacement panel on the car weld in place grind spot welds. Prime paint Easy task. In my view Call me ken if you have further questions | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | w.weiland - 2022-11-19 9:15 PM Doing collision repair for 26 + years a roof is a very easy replacement. Pretty much easier then a quarter panel. Once windows are out drill out spot weld til you hit base metal on the car. Donor go all walY thru. Unlike newer cars you have no bonding adhesives to contend with. Once separated set replacement panel on the car weld in place grind spot welds. Prime paint Easy task. In my view Call me ken if you have further questions Started bodywork 35 years ago, did accident repairs. The fist thing you have to do, according to manufacturer instructions, when you replace the roof of a unibody, bolt the body firmly to a factory car bench. This is how it is always done in professional bodyshop and this is how it was done when the car was welded together in the facory.... Also, you would actually have to weld the roof to the body using a welding tongue, like in the factory, to give the same stability, without the risk of cracking later on. Not so easy with a used roof with lots of holes in it, that need to be closed too. Using the holes to gas-weld it to the body is actually not recommended. | ||
big m |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7819 Location: Williams California | Depending on the extent of the rust would dictate the next step. If there are rust bubbles appearing in multiple areas, take an awl or body pick, and lightly tap surrounding areas to see how extensive the rust is. Replacing the entire roof is a rough job, one that most professional restorers shy away from, as though the A-pillar is easy to separate from the cowl, the C-pillar has multiple supports going to the body and rear wheelwell, and, as Sid mentioned, it would need to be held in a jig to get back on correctly. Patching the rusty sections is far easier, but you just want to be sure you've attacked ALL the thin areas, so you don't get a surprise a year down the road after you've finished painting the car. ---John | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | I think I will post pictures of the massive C-pillars of my 61 Fury coupe and ask Wayne where and how to drill the spot welds "easily". IIRC they are spotwelded to multi layers of sheet metal in a hidden place. Chances are, in the factory that they welded the rear cowl to the roof first. That whole area is a nightmare, where multiple panels are joined. This actually gives stability, which is gone with the roof removed. This means, you need also braces from left to right, not just front to rear. Very likely, if you replace the roof, the rear shelf panel has to come off too. Yeah, "Easy"..... | ||
big m |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7819 Location: Williams California | 1960fury - 2022-11-23 5:05 PM I think I will post pictures of the massive C-pillars of my 61 Fury coupe and ask Wayne where and how to drill the spot welds "easily". IIRC they are spotwelded to multi layers of sheet metal in a hidden place. Chances are, in the factory that they welded the rear cowl to the roof first. That whole area is a nightmare, where multiple panels are joined. This actually gives stability, which is gone with the roof removed. This means, you need also braces from left to right, not just front to rear. Very likely, if you replace the roof, the rear shelf panel has to come off too. Yeah, "Easy"..... Exactly!!! | ||
w.weiland |
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Expert Posts: 1510 Location: Lordstown, Ohio | 1960fury - 2022-11-23 8:05 PM I think I will post pictures of the massive C-pillars of my 61 Fury coupe and ask Wayne where and how to drill the spot welds "easily". IIRC they are spotwelded to multi layers of sheet metal in a hidden place. Chances are, in the factory that they welded the rear cowl to the roof first. That whole area is a nightmare, where multiple panels are joined. This actually gives stability, which is gone with the roof removed. This means, you need also braces from left to right, not just front to rear. Very likely, if you replace the roof, the rear shelf panel has to come off too. Yeah, "Easy"..... a "C" pillar is just that a "C" pillar. when one reads into a post to far one draws conclusions without thinking about what was said. A roof. did i state roof and inner structure??? i think not. i stated a roof no structure, thus your on a whole different playing feild. a roof is a skin in the collision industry. we are not talking front or rear headers are we??? i think not. regardless if we were is the simple thought of planning a repair procedure. yes one can sit back and complain about the complexe idea behind it all . its called thinking it thru. i wont get into a debate over this because of years of listening to whiners in shops. i have no desire to get into it. there are way to many problem finders in this world and on this board. find a solution and do it no disrespect to anyone intended. everything in life is a mindset. either you control it or it controls you and i still stand my ground. a roof is a easy replacement for one who knows how to love you buddy | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | w.weiland - 2022-11-24 7:46 PM a roof is a skin in the collision industry. A roof is a roof and a roof skin is a roof skin. Anyway, still would like to know how you "easily" separate the skin from the inner structure. The roof skin on 61 coupes runs down to and into the rear panel. While the roof is a 3 piece affair, it is leaded from the factory where it joins. In my opinion the C pillars are part of the roof. w.weiland Doing collision repair for 26 + years a roof is a very easy replacement. Pretty much easier then a quarter panel. Once windows are out drill out spot weld til you hit base metal on the car. Donor go all walY thru. Unlike newer cars you have no bonding adhesives to contend with. Once separated set replacement panel on the car weld in place grind spot welds. Prime paint Easy task. In my view You mean the window spot welds are all you have to deal with? I got the impression. No wonder you thought it is "very easy replacement". Maybe we just have a different perception of a "very easy task".... Edited by 1960fury 2022-11-24 9:01 PM | ||
w.weiland |
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Expert Posts: 1510 Location: Lordstown, Ohio | w.weiland Doing collision repair for 26 + years a roof is a very easy replacement. Pretty much easier then a quarter panel. Once windows are out drill out spot weld til you hit base metal on the car. Donor go all walY thru. Unlike newer cars you have no bonding adhesives to contend with. Once separated set replacement panel on the car weld in place grind spot welds. Prime paint Easy task. In my view ((((((You mean the window spot welds are all you have to deal with? I got the impression. No wonder you thought it is "very easy replacement". Maybe we just have a different perception of a "very easy task"....)))) Yes just the roof or as your saying the skin. you remove the +skin+ from the factory seams. after that one accesses the extent of the structure. from that point one decides to or if one needs to use the structure or even part of the structure. there is no reason to replace structure unless structure has to be. as i stated. there are no bonding adhesives nor structural foam in these cars. which makes this task very easy. (from my point of veiw) (just to backwards a few steps. in the US cars are deemed a total loss at %80 sometimes%90 of there value. those were the cars i fixed. so you can visualize the extent of the damage on them) Edited by w.weiland 2022-11-25 6:33 AM | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | w.weiland - 2022-11-25 6:30 AM Yes just the roof or as your saying the skin. you remove the +skin+ from the factory seams. after that one accesses the extent of the structure. from that point one decides to or if one needs to use the structure or even part of the structure. as i stated. there are no bonding adhesives nor structural foam in these cars. which makes this task very easy. (from my point of veiw) First of all, even the skin is part of the "structure". It is the layers of sheet metal spot weldet together that give stability. If you remove the skin, you somewhat weaken the structure. Just the separating the upper roof skin from the C-pillar, where the factory used lead, is not an "easy task", not to mention welding it back in place WITHOUT butt welding. Not touching the factory lead means removal of the C pillar and shelf panel. Not an "easy task" either. IIRC my 60 had factory lead even in the header area. And what about the drip rail? Just removing that rock hard facory sealer that goes there is not fun. Not sure if it is spot welded there along the drip rail. I guess it is, and drilling out all the welds, that turns the repair panel into swiss cheese, is not an easy task, if it is crimped, even worse. Edited by 1960fury 2022-11-25 8:56 PM | ||
mikes2nd |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5054 | yeah this is not a couple hour job the roofs were not made to come off... this is a multiple day job skinning it... you are talking about hundreds of spot welds to drill out first. and you have to do it TWICE... and then fix it then reweld it again... I would think you would cut the pillars but rewelding the back and getting it right is a pita.
Edited by mikes2nd 2022-11-25 8:52 PM | ||
w.weiland |
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Expert Posts: 1510 Location: Lordstown, Ohio | Ok | ||
22mafeja |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 701 Location: Finland | You still have to accept that if a roof is as rusty as the Dodge 60 roof on the pictures it has just paper thin reinforcements left in the pillars at best. And yes it is almost impossible to get a complete roof replaced without simplifying or altering the reinforcements. | ||
w.weiland |
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Expert Posts: 1510 Location: Lordstown, Ohio | let me ask this how many roofs and structure have you replaced? how many quarter panels have you replaced how many frame rails have you replaced lastly Ken asked for views on what he should do. he didnt ask for bashing or battle of wits.. he asked what he should do. am i correct in this i can understand the view that if one never replaced a roof it can be a big task. i will give you that. if one has never replaced a quarter panel the same as well along with a frame rail. and i can fully understand if one is not sure of their skillset on welding it would be a big task. so in all honesty i understand the views on being a big task for those unsure or have never done it. i still stand by my comments im out find a new subject to bash | ||
22mafeja |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 701 Location: Finland | Well I won`t participate in this pissing contest. I have done some bodywork believe me. When you are talking of changing a roof EASILY I believe you are talking of a roof on a newer not rusted to paper car. This is not the same thing imo. | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9893 Location: So. Cal | I miss real pissing contests. A lot of fun bending out as far as I can after saving up after a long drink. | ||
Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | After probing around on roof today after speaking to Wayne I think there is a big difference between replacing a roof skin or an entire roof structure. Spent awhile looking at roof spot welds. You can see the many front and rear window spot welds. Under seam sealer on gutter rails there are many spot welds. To do just the roof skin doesn’t look easy by any means, but doesn’t look impossible either. To do the entire roof structure by spot weld drilling looks to be much harder. I have yet to determine wether I need to change just the roof skin or the entire roof structure? Another question I have? Is there any problem of the rear window gasket shrinking after being removed and being stored before reinstalling. I appreciate everyone’s input on this subject. I would hate to botch this repair and turn them into parts cars. Edited by Apollo 61 2022-11-28 12:50 AM | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9893 Location: So. Cal | Store the rubber in a dark, climate controlled area, and it will be fine. Stored outside in the California sun and/or heat will guarantee it's demise. If you soak it with Gojo hand cleaner first and clean it, it will help to preserve it. The material that leaches out of it, causing it to become hard is in part, paraffin wax. Gojo has some liquid paraffin in it that helps to revitalize it. You can also purchase liquid paraffin directly, but it isn't cheap. | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13067 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Mind that it's way much easier to find a rear window in good condition than to find a decent rubber gasket. That means that you might have to decide if you must break the rear window for to save the rubber gasket. As for the roof skin, there's a seam in the C-pillars that is filled with lead. You must find the seams an melt away the lead. When mounting the roof skin you might have to braze the seam as it's very difficult to weld in metal with lead. | ||
Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | Probing around further inside gutter rails there is lots of toaster crumb rust debris. Not any real soft spots I’ve found yet,but it has to be getting thin somewhere? Looking inside the A pillar of a 61 Chrysler roof that I had cut off I don’t see any internal braces. The C pillar is small about 4 inches compared to say a 61 imperial roof pilar. If I were to cut across A pilar at mid section and install bracing,take measurements, make window spacing jigs. Cut C pilar across at lead seam. Butt weld it all back together. Would this not work? | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9893 Location: So. Cal | Not a good idea. The A pillar is composed of MANY layers of sheet metal that are invisible from the outside. It is possible to separate the A-pillar connection from it's original spot welding and make it work that way. I'm not sure what all is going on at the C-pillar to give you advice, but I suspect that the situation is similar. On my cars, there are two heavily formed bracing on either side of it. It would be difficult to get it all welded back together properly. Also, butt welding isn't as strong as lap welding, so it would be prone to cracking and breaking with flexure, which roofs do a lot because they are an integral part of the structure of the car on a unibody. | ||
mikes2nd |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5054 | the front of the roof wouldnt be bad... Scott on cold war motors did it... its a ton of work doing the back though... to get it perfect, then to butt weld inner and outer structure would be a super pita... | ||
22mafeja |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 701 Location: Finland | I would cut the A-pillars as high up as possible if they aren`t rusted. After they have been proberly braced of course. You know that the windows sit on your car but you don`t know what the replacement roof has experienced... The C-pillars has to be cut as low as possible so you get access to the worst area on these cars , where the shelf meets the pillars and is connected to the inner wheel wells. Many times braces are completely gone so you may be forced to invent them again... All this is of course depending on where the new roof is cut.... | ||
1960fury |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 7501 Location: northern germany | Do not even think about cutting and butt welding. This is a big no no. I know the US is a different country, but cutting butt welding stressed parts, wether unibody or suspension components is prohibited in Germany, not without a reason. You would have to fab reinforcements to be spot welded to the backside to the roof.... I stand to what I said and every experienced body man will agree, done properly changing the roof of a unitbody car is not an easy task. One more thing. I wonder why novadays people are so thin-skinned, calling a simple technical discussion (this only works with opposed, or different opinions) a "pissing match"? I don't get it. It is a called a discussion board and this went smoothly without name calling. | ||
Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | I’m listening to what everybody has to say about roof repair project. If I didn’t have such a good donor roof available to use then I would just likely focus on spot repairs on roof rust. I most likely will do a roof skin vs structure repair. If doing the structure replacement I was going to use some kind of sleeve on A pillar,drill holes and spot weld in addition to butt welding. On C pillar I was planning to cut at lead seam and cut an access window into pillar to weld any inner structure with sleeve or lap welds. If braced properly why would this not work? ttotired nice work on dodge roof! If you had a solid roof available would you have used it or just do the spot repairs instead? | ||
Apollo 61 |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 775 | I have a 62 300 coupe parts car that I’m just about done with. I will be cutting up hulk soon. Has similar roof line to 61 Plymouth coupe. Was thinking about a trial run with 300 cutting roof structure off and welding back on. It’s a junk roof on junk body. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8445 Location: Perth Australia | No, I dont think I would have. I think if I had cut the roof off, I would have made a parade car out of it or considered a "chop top" if I had of done the car at all. Someone did that on a 61 Plymouth that looked awesome. That would be a huge, scary job. I actually bought that car to cut up and use to do what I am doing now, which is, to convert my Plymouth to RHD. For that, I have accumulated enough of the "hard to get" things to go ahead, but not all of it. If you want to see whats going on there, I started a thread for it here http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=78001&post... | ||
Space Trukin Wagon |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 450 Location: Ohio | Even though there are some differences for how mopar built the cars at the factory through the model years, for the most part the uni-body assembly process remained basically the same. Stating this because in the E-body / B-body world replacing the roof has become common practice now that AMD has reproduction full metal roof skins available. It may take planning and hours to complete but definitely something that can be accomplished Attached is just one of many that are available from professional shops to in your own garage on "how to". Hopefully, this info will help with the decision on roof replacement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbMOSKKfoW4 | ||
w.weiland |
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Expert Posts: 1510 Location: Lordstown, Ohio | Space Trukin Wagon - 2022-12-04 12:53 PM Even though there are some differences for how mopar built the cars at the factory through the model years, for the most part the uni-body assembly process remained basically the same. Stating this because in the E-body / B-body world replacing the roof has become common practice now that AMD has reproduction full metal roof skins available. It may take planning and hours to complete but definitely something that can be accomplished Attached is just one of many that are available from professional shops to in your own garage on "how to". Hopefully, this info will help with the decision on roof replacement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbMOSKKfoW4 then there was crickets,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, | ||
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