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Anti-Sway Bar
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JedRhule
Posted 2022-11-17 9:37 AM (#625680)
Subject: Anti-Sway Bar



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Has anyone tried replacing a 56 Dodge anti sway bar with a Chrysler/ DeSoto part to try to reduce the lean on turns. I want to eliminate the tire rub I am getting from the Coker Classic 225/75R15. Does anyone have a measurement of the diameter of the Chrysler or DeSoto? MY 56 Dodge bar is 7/8".
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-17 10:03 AM (#625681 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Yes, I did on my '56 Plymouth. But it sounds like you aren't going to gain anything because my Plymouth bar was 3/4", and the '56 Chrysler bar that I used was 7/8". The '55-'56 Dodge & Plymouth all use the same bar, so either someone has already swapped in a '56 Chrysler/DeSoto bar, or you aren't measuring it correctly.

The '55 Chrysler/DeSoto bar is a different part number than the '56. The '55 Chrysler bushing is the same one used by the Dodge/Heavy Duty Plymouth. So the '55 Chrysler bar has the same small 3/4" diameter. You have to get a '56 Chrysler/DeSoto bar to upgrade it.

What's not listed in the parts manual, is that my '56 Fury's have a larger size bar on them than the other Plymouths. Those bars are 13/16". Not as big as the '56 Chrysler, but bigger than the standard Dodge/Plymouth. I suspect that the D500 Dodge also came with this same 13/16" bar size. I guess the Fury and D500 came in too late to be included in the parts manual.

Edited by Powerflite 2022-11-17 10:45 AM




(ChryslerSwayBar.jpg)



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Attachments ChryslerSwayBar.jpg (42KB - 78 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-11-17 10:41 AM (#625684 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: RE: Anti-Sway Bar



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Gerry: I agree with Nathan. If your bar is 7/8", it is probably the biggest anti-sway bar they used in 1956. There might have been a 15/16" bar but I am not sure.

The 56 D500s and D500-1 race chassis used the anti-sway bar from the senior cars, i.e. the 56 Desotos and 56 Chryslers, PN 1639 165. I am trying to get an owner of an early D500 to measure the diameter of their front bar. In the meantime, try finding a 56 Desoto or 56 Chrysler bar.





Edited by 56D500boy 2022-11-17 1:22 PM




(56DodgeD500AndD500Dash1SwayBarPN1639165.jpg)



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StillOutThere
Posted 2022-11-17 12:00 PM (#625688 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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I found a salvage yard '56 DeSoto front anti-sway bar and brackets and it is installed on my '56 Dodge CRL. Been a few years but the dimension change sounds correct. Was 3/4". Now 7/8" That 1/8 inch is very significant. Think about torsion bar upgrades in the '57 and later cars. They are in "several thousandths" to for example make a '57 NYer chassis into a '57 300C chassis.
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-17 1:55 PM (#625690 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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There is no mention of increased bar sizes on the 300's in the parts book. Maybe I should measure my 300C and 300D to compare to my New Yorkers.
But the torsional stiffness goes up as the 4th! power of the radius. So a little does go a long way.
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-11-17 3:30 PM (#625691 - in reply to #625688)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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StillOutThere - 2022-11-17 9:00 AM
I found a salvage yard '56 DeSoto front anti-sway bar and brackets and it is installed on my '56 Dodge CRL. Been a few years but the dimension change sounds correct. Was 3/4". Now 7/8" That 1/8 inch is very significant.


Wayne: Based on your comment and that Gerard already has a 7/8" sway bar on his Dodge CRL (4 dr Lancer), and my part numbers sleuthing, I checked eBay for 56 Chrysler and 56 Desoto front anti-sway bars for my mid-May 1956 D500 Special (that got the normal 56 Dodge 3/4" sway bar and the 5 leaf rear springs).

Lucked out.

There was a 56 Windsor bar there on a Buy it Now. So I did.


Edited by 56D500boy 2022-11-17 3:32 PM




(56WindsorFrontSwayBarOnEBay.jpg)



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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-17 8:21 PM (#625701 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Thanks for posting this chart in your other thread. So:

'55-'56 Plymouth: 3/4"
Canadian '55-'56 Plodge: 3/4"
Heavy duty '55-'56 Plymouth/Plodge (Fury, Police, Taxi): 13/16"
'55-'56 Dodge: 13/16"
'55 DeSoto/Chrysler/Imperial: 13/16"
'56 DeSoto/Chrysler/Imperial: 7/8"
'56 D500 Optional Max Duty: 7/8"

Edited by Powerflite 2022-11-17 9:03 PM




(56D500Parts_FrontSwayBar_16939165_CrossTo56DesotosAndChryslers.jpg)



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Attachments 56D500Parts_FrontSwayBar_16939165_CrossTo56DesotosAndChryslers.jpg (205KB - 74 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-17 8:54 PM (#625704 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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It's interesting to note that the '55 Chrysler bar doesn't have the same part number as the '55-'56 Dodge bar, even though they have the same diameter. So I conclude that the Chrysler bars are designed a little differently than the Dodge bars, making them not perfectly interchangeable. However, in practice, the difference in design is minor, and they can be made to work on swapped bodies pretty well. It felt like it required bending the end of the Chrysler bar a little more to get it to line up with the Plymouth control arm, but it didn't require too much force to get it where it needed to be. I think the Chrysler bar mounts a little further outboard on the Plymouth arm, making it even more effective, so that's a good thing too.
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-11-18 2:10 AM (#625711 - in reply to #625704)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Powerflite - 2022-11-17 5:54 PM
It's interesting to note that the '55 Chrysler bar doesn't have the same part number as the '55-'56 Dodge bar, even though they have the same diameter. So I conclude that the Chrysler bars are designed a little differently than the Dodge bars, making them not perfectly interchangeable.


I would guess that the 13/16" diameter 1955 Chrysler bar has a different part number than the 13/16" diameter 1955-56 Dodge bar because the Chrysler bar is longer than the Dodge bar. They would not have wanted to get them mixed up, especially if a shorter Dodge bar got installed on a wider Chrysler. As you point out, the longer/wider Chrysler bar mounted on a 1955-56 Dodge would be of some benefit, even if it was 13/16" and not like the 7/8" 56 D500 bar "stolen" from the 56 Chrysler parts bin.

I will be able to comment further about the mounting of the 7/8" Chrysler bar on my 56 Dodge when I receive the one I bought today on eBay. At least your comments prepare me to deal with whatever the issue(s) will be. (Thanks)

55 Chrysler Front Tread width = 60.22"

55/56 Dodge Front Tread width = 58.9" (1.32" difference or 0.66" on each side away from the centerline)









Edited by 56D500boy 2022-11-18 2:24 AM
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JedRhule
Posted 2022-11-18 2:07 PM (#625723 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Upon closer inspection by a pair of younger eyes, and a caliper manufactured this century, my bar is 13/16.
Sorry for the mis-information but it did bring about a spirited discussion about sway bars.
and gave Dave an opportunity to vent about international shipping.
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-11-18 4:54 PM (#625729 - in reply to #625723)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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JedRhule - 2022-11-18 11:07 AM
Upon closer inspection by a pair of younger eyes, and a caliper manufactured this century, my bar is 13/16.
Sorry for the mis-information but it did bring about a spirited discussion about sway bars.
and gave Dave an opportunity to vent about international shipping.


Gerard: The real outfall of all that is I bought a 7/8" diameter bar that I would have left for you to buy for your 56 Dodge. However, because you said that you had a 7/8" bar already, I claimed the on eBay on "Buy it Now" for myself. Sorry about that but....

Now we need to find you a 7/8" 56 Desoto or 56 Chrysler bar for your car.

John F. at Big M in California might have one. I bought 56 Chrysler front suspension king pin uprights from him last year so he might still have a front sway bar and brackets off that car.



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56D500boy
Posted 2022-11-20 1:19 PM (#625760 - in reply to #625690)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Powerflite - 2022-11-17 10:55 AM
There is no mention of increased bar sizes on the 300's in the parts book. Maybe I should measure my 300C and 300D to compare to my New Yorkers.
But the torsional stiffness goes up as the 4th! power of the radius. So a little does go a long way.


Agree about the parts book not showing a specific 56 300 bar. As far as I can see, all 56 Desotos and 56 Chryslers (and the 56 Imperial) got the same 7/8" dia, 1639 165, bar.

I found one sway bar torsional stiffness equation that confirmed your (D1/D2)^4 power suggestion (I really need to see the definition diagram though).

*BUT* on the basis that the fourth power rule is correct, going from a 13/16" bar to a 7/8" bar yields a 34.5% increase in Torsional stiffness:

(0.875/0.8125)^4 = (1.07692)^4 = 1.345 = 34.5% increase in effectiveness (??) = so presumably less sway

UPDATE: Found this:





Edited by 56D500boy 2022-11-20 2:46 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-20 5:41 PM (#625763 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: RE: Anti-Sway Bar



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Did you ever doubt me!?

Edited by Powerflite 2022-11-20 5:42 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2022-11-20 7:28 PM (#625765 - in reply to #625763)
Subject: RE: Anti-Sway Bar



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Powerflite - 2022-11-20 2:41 PM
Did you ever doubt me!?


Not really. BUT...

I doubt even myself if I cannot find some corroborating evidence somewhere, i.e. Published References (this comes from doing an MSc and PhD being an Academic for 15 years (1975-1990)), etc.

So I was happy to find some documentation that showed the D^4 in a torsion equation to confirm what you said.

Hope you didn't take it personally.

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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-21 11:16 AM (#625777 - in reply to #625765)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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I just measured all my Chrysler & DeSoto sway bars.
57 New Yorker, 57 Windsor, 300C, 300D, 58 Firedome, 58 Fireflite = all have 13/16" sway bars. No difference between any of them.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2022-11-21 11:52 AM (#625778 - in reply to #625777)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Powerflite - 2022-11-21 10:16 AM I just measured all my Chrysler & DeSoto sway bars. 57 New Yorker, 57 Windsor, 300C, 300D, 58 Firedome, 58 Fireflite = all have 13/16" sway bars. No difference between any of them.

Right, for a "heavier duty" suspension, a torsion bar front end is relying on the superior (to coil spring) torsion bar itself to provide the initial control througha somewhat wide band of car weights, thus 341" Desoto through 392 inch 300C can all use the same bar.

The control is done by the torsion bars and thus the Letter Cars, having much higher on road (track?) performance, came stock with the HD bars.   Opposite end of this consideration is the 6 cylinder Plymouths and Dodges having even lighter bars than their counterpart V8 equipped models.

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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-21 12:19 PM (#625780 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Except, I believe that only the 300D came with a larger T-bar; and I have verified that it is larger on mine. I haven't measured my 300C T-bars, but I've been told they are the same as the New Yorker & Windsor.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2022-11-21 12:29 PM (#625782 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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I would disagree by parts book research and by personal experience with the cars. The 300C and 300D both use the same HD, larger torsion bars.
300E has a change in length so got a new part number.
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StillOutThere
Posted 2022-11-21 2:15 PM (#625784 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Found my master copy of The 1957 Chrysler 300C Handbook. The factory supplied HD torsion bars are 1.11" diameter which gave 40% stiffer response than the stock NYer-style bars in all other '57 Chry. That matched well with the 7-leaf rear springs which were 50% stiffer than the 6-leaf type they replaced.

In my opinion, the 7-leaf springs did not alone provide adequate rear body control in these cars. They either needed a significantly HD rear anti-sway bar or they needed 8-leaf rear springs. I had one very used 300C to which a previous owner had taken main leafs from another pair of springs, cut off the eye ends and added them to the spring pack. THAT CAR HANDLED the way a supposed NASCAR contender should have and was still less than harsh on public highways.
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-21 3:01 PM (#625788 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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I'll have to measure mine when I get a chance, and report back. It isn't as easy as the sway bar, being fully underneath the car.

I agree about the rear springs. I think the main problem with the originals is the deep groove that runs up the middle of them. That significantly hinders their performance compared to new springs. And the biggest handling issue with these cars is for sure from the back end. I put new 7 leaf springs on my '58 Firedome, designed from the original pack by a truck spring company, but it was too stiff because of using leafs without that groove in them. I then took out the 2nd, longest spring, and it was amazingly perfect for the car. The springs were designed so that 2nd leaf came quite close to the rear eye. By removing it, there was a larger gap there that gave a nice soft ride, but could be loaded without sagging much at all. To this day, that car remains the best handling forwardlook car I have ever driven. Hugs the curves at 85mph without a care and gives a nice soft ride too. I should probably have a spring company copy what I have on there for my other cars.

Edited by Powerflite 2022-11-21 3:20 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-22 2:40 PM (#625811 - in reply to #625788)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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The removable floor panel in my 300C was loose, so it made it easy to measure the t-bar diameter on it. You were right Wayne. Both my 300C and 300D have 1.12" t-bars, whereas the New Yorker & Windsor have 1.025" t-bars. That's a 42.5% increase in stiffness. The small differences in my numbers are likely due to paint & dirt thicknesses or tolerances.

Edited by Powerflite 2022-11-22 3:03 PM
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JedRhule
Posted 2022-11-22 7:32 PM (#625814 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Dave directed me to French Lake Auto Parts in Minnesota where they were parting out a 56 New Yorker. I should have the sway bar next week. They confirmed it was 7/8 inch.
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22mafeja
Posted 2022-11-29 3:26 AM (#625940 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: RE: Anti-Sway Bar


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I bought a anti-sway bar rubber kit for my Coronet 57 before I had noticed that standard Royal and Coronet 57 were delivered without the darned thing...

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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-29 10:04 AM (#625941 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Yep, I had to weld in the mounts on my '58 Coronet to install one. Makes a nice difference in driving.
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JedRhule
Posted 2022-11-29 1:23 PM (#625953 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Has anyone considered a 55 Chevy (wash my mouth) rear anti sway bar kit like this: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/1955-57-Chevy-Rear-Sway-Bar-Kit-7-8-I... Both have leaf springs, All that matters is axle width.
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-11-29 2:00 PM (#625955 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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I put a Hellwig rear sway bar on my '70 Satellite wagon because of it's atrocious handling incapability. It helped, but didn't really solve the problem. I then replaced the rear springs with proper stiff springs for a 9 passenger wagon (Twice the weight of the old 6 passenger springs!). That solved the problem and I found that the rear sway bar wasn't doing much after that. My Cudas don't seem to benefit much from them either. So in my experience, rear sway bars are a good idea for road racing, but for even spirited driving, they won't benefit your driving experience very much.

That said, it does seem like those should work, but be careful that your rear sway stiffness doesn't exceed your front stiffness (weighted by how much weight you have on each section), or you can end up with a dangerous combination for your rear to spin out from under you during hard turns.

Edited by Powerflite 2022-11-29 2:04 PM
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JedRhule
Posted 2022-11-29 3:05 PM (#625957 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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Hard Turns? I am just trying to reduce rubbing the rear whitewalls on 20mph turns. I increased the air in my rear shocks from 20 to 40. Less rubbing but kinda harsh ride. I did not have that with the 760X15 bias tires.
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-10-10 5:54 PM (#632268 - in reply to #625680)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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I measured the sway bars on a couple of '56 DeSoto's sitting at Big M over the weekend. They came out at 13/16", just like the Dodge & '55 DeSoto/Chrysler. That was unexpected. I wonder if they used '55 bars in them for some reason. Anyway, some other '56 DeSoto owners should confirm what they have, as these bars shouldn't have been installed in there, according to the parts book information.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-10-10 8:01 PM (#632271 - in reply to #632268)
Subject: Re: Anti-Sway Bar



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In my experience, the 56 Chrysler front anti-sway bars are 7/8", 1/16" more than the 13/16" "stock" 56 Dodge bar.

What I said back in July of this year:

"Removed the 56 Dodge anti-sway bar. Measured it at 53/64 (13/16 would be 52/64). Measured the 56 Chrylser bar before I trialed it in place at 57/64 (7/8 would be 56/64) so 4/64 (1/16") difference in diameter. "

Dodge bar measurement, then the Chrysler bar measurement:





REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=78043&...



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