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1957 Plymouth 301cu.in. questions. Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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local2Ed |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 586 | I have a 1957 Plymouth Custom Suburban station wagon with what is supposedly a 301cu.in. engine. The numbers P31-278830 are on the front drivers side, below the head, on the block. Are these numbers correct for a 301cu.in. 2 barrel? The supposed 301cu.in. in the Plymouth wagon has a PowerFlite transmission. I would like to put the Plymouth 301 into a 1957 Dodge Sierra that has a 325cu.in. with a TorqueFlite transmission. I want to use the TorqueFlite behind the Plymouth 301 to put in the 1957 Dodge. It loos like the engine should mount up in the frame the same but my question what if anything would I have to change to mount the TorqueFlite to the 301 Plymouth engine that has a PowerFlite mounted to it know? Both engines and transmissions are in their respective cars right now so I'm trying to find out what would need switching over so I know what I have to do before I start to swap them over. Thanks. | ||
56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10179 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . This won't help you as much as you want *BUT* as far as I know, in 1957 there were three Plymouth V8s, the 301 in everything but the 57 Fury and the Plazas and the 318 "V800" in the 57 Fury and the 277 in the Plaza. The 277 Plaza engine was likely a carry-over from 1956 and was likely a "P29". The other two were in the "P31" family. All three were polys. They all shared the same 4.46" bore spacing. The 301 and 318 shared a 3.91" bore (but different strokes (3.125" and 3.31" respectively). However, I think the 57 Fury 318 "V800" engine has an "F" in front of the P31 nnnnnn, like this: REFERENCES: https://www.allpar.com/threads/catching-up-quickly-plymouth-cars-195... https://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/mopar/57plym/bilder/4.jpg Willem Weertman's Chrysler Engine book, pg. 156. Edited by 56D500boy 2022-09-21 8:25 PM (57FuryBrochureCover.jpg) (57FuryBrochureSpecs.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 57FuryBrochureCover.jpg (145KB - 87 downloads) 57FuryBrochureSpecs.jpg (237KB - 84 downloads) | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9883 Location: So. Cal | As long as you keep the proper Torqueflite aluminum adapter, bellhousing & torque converter with the Torqueflite transmission, you can swap any '54-'61 small block V8 based engine from one transmission to another. This also applies to '52-'53 Dodge and DeSoto, but not the Chrysler, due to their use of an extended bell housing on the block. | ||
ronbo97 |
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Expert Posts: 4110 Location: Connecticut | Why do you want to do this swap ? You won't be gaining HP and it seems like a lot of work for no appreciable gain. Roon | ||
local2Ed |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 586 | ronbo97 - 2022-09-21 8:01 PM Why do you want to do this swap ? You won't be gaining HP and it seems like a lot of work for no appreciable gain. Roon The 325 in the Dodge could use a rebuild and if I install the 301 in it I can continue to use the Dodge and rebuild the 325 at my leisure. I know what your saying, I'm not doing it to gain anything and swapping engine and transmissions that are made to interchange is about as simple and quick as it gets. | ||
local2Ed |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 586 | Powerflite - 2022-09-21 7:57 PM As long as you keep the proper Torqueflite aluminum adapter, bellhousing & torque converter with the Torqueflite transmission, you can swap any '54-'61 small block V8 based engine from one transmission to another. This also applies to '52-'53 Dodge and DeSoto, but not the Chrysler, due to their use of an extended bell housing on the block. That's what I thought, but wanted to get some input in case there was anything I couldn't determine by looking at them side by side. Will the Y pipe on the exhaust interchange? The Dodge has a good Y pipe and the Plymouth has two stubs. I'll have to look at the placements of the manifold exits closely next time I'm out there. | ||
56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10179 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Zeke: I didn't want to chime in on the transmission swap but now that you are thinking about it more, I have to say some words of caution: While a A-466 cast-iron Torqueflite will likely bolt up the 301 Powerflite bell-housing and maybe even use the same torque converter, that is not the end of it. Based on my experience swapping a A-466 into my 56 Dodge, there are other issues that you will need to deal with. There are five main components to this swap: 1. The Transmission (and torque converter) 2. The Cross-Member (the A-466 is longer and the mounting point is further back, potentially requiring cross member mods) 3. The Shifter (the 5 button Torqueflite shifter is seriously different than the 4 button Powerflite shifter) 4. The Driveshaft (will need to be shortened by 3.5" or so) 5. The associated cables and levers I have detailed all these issues in this thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=73638&... Based on my experience ($$$), I would consider just swapping the engines but leaving the transmission and driveshaft alone. As for the 57 Plymouth V8 engines, I was a bit wrong with what I posted yesterday. There were actually 4, not 3: The base 277 (actually 276.1) 2 bbl (Probably stamped P29) The option 2 bbl "301" (actually 299.6) The power pack 4 bbl "301" The 317.6 cu in "318", 2 x 4bbl engine for the Fury (not sure if this was also the "V-800" or not) Good luck but read my transmission swap hints before you decide for sure. | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9883 Location: So. Cal | No exhaust is likely to interchange. Dump the y-pipe and go with dual exhaust. That's the best power improvement you can make to your car without tearing the engine apart. The stock y-pipe on my '70 Satellite was forcing the whole engine through a narrow slot due to poor manufacturing at the junction. Putting in dual exhaust made it feel like a completely different car. | ||
local2Ed |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 586 | 56D500boy - 2022-09-22 11:43 AM . Based on my experience ($$$), I would consider just swapping the engines but leaving the transmission and driveshaft alone. :) That's all I intend to do but I probably didn't make that clear in my first post. The TorqueFlite transmission in the 1957 Dodge will stay, the 325 cu.in. will be replaced with the 301cu.in. Thanks for the reply's. | ||
local2Ed |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 586 | Powerflite - 2022-09-22 11:47 AM No exhaust is likely to interchange. Dump the y-pipe and go with dual exhaust. That's the best power improvement you can make to your car without tearing the engine apart. The stock y-pipe on my '70 Satellite was forcing the whole engine through a narrow slot due to poor manufacturing at the junction. Putting in dual exhaust made it feel like a completely different car. I'm not looking to gain any performance on this swap just looking for a temporary engine swap until I get around to rebuilding the 325 from the Dodge. I agree dual exhaust would be an improvement, and would be the way to go on the 301 but I don't want to buy the exhaust to fit the 301 and find out It wont bolt up when the 325 gets put back in. Anyway, I'll look at the exhaust exits on both engines manifolds and determine if the pipes look like they'll line up. Thanks for the reply's. | ||
HemiSportFury |
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Member Posts: 39 Location: SW Colorado | As an aside to the comment above about the 301 not being available in the Plaza, when I was in high school back in 1964-65 I had a 57 Plaza two door with the 301 four barrel and a power flight. That was decades before I heard of numbers matching, etc. but I am certain that it was a 301 from checking the engine number with a Motors Manual, and there no indication that the engine had been swapped at any point. That car ran pretty good and I loved it but sold it when I joined the Navy shortly after I graduated from high school. | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1748 Location: Alaska | I am wondering if they had some left over 56 277s and used them in early production 57s but only in the cheaper Plazas. | ||
56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10179 Location: Lower Mainland BC | 58coupe - 2022-09-25 7:32 AM I am wondering if they had some left over 56 277s and used them in early production 57s but only in the cheaper Plazas. That would be my guess too. However, the 1957 277s were apparently slightly different than the 56 277s. In 1957 the 277 developed 197 hp, an additional 10 hp over 1956 277s thanks to a different camshaft and carburetor. The 1957 277 was available only in the Plaza. It was not designated a "P29" engine as I thought earlier. Like the 301s, the 1957 277 was also designated a "P31" (the flat head six was a P30 in 1957). So finding a "P31-nnnnn" stamping on a 1957 Plymouth poly engine block just below the front of left head did NOT guarantee it being a 301. Apparently the 301 was the standard V-8 in Belvederes and Savoys and optional in the Plaza. As such, it was had a 2 bbl carb that put out 215 hp in standard form. However, for an additional $36.20 you could apparently add a "Fury" 301 Quad package consisting of a four-barrel carburetor, special distributor, and dual exhausts, raising horsepower to 235 at 4400 rpm. Adding use of the term "Fury" was apparently confusing even back in the day since the 4 bbl Fury 301 V-8 could be had in all car lines except the Fury itself, which came with the 2 x 4 bbl V-800 290 hp 318 as its only powerplant. I think it was the 2 x 4 bbl equipped 318 which I was stamped FP31-nnnnn on the block in the photo I posted above. REFERENCES: 1. https://www.allpar.com/threads/plymouth-cars-of-1957-three-years-ahe... 2. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=49450&... Edited by 56D500boy 2022-09-29 1:21 PM (Allpars1957PlymouthEngineSpecChart.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Allpars1957PlymouthEngineSpecChart.jpg (80KB - 85 downloads) | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9883 Location: So. Cal | They called that the power pak in '55-'56. I'm surprised they changed the name on it. | ||
local2Ed |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 586 | 56D500boy - 2022-09-29 1:18 PM Like the 301s, the 1957 277 was also designated a "P31" (the flat head six was a P30 in 1957). So finding a "P31-nnnnn" stamping on a 1957 Plymouth poly engine block just below the front of left head did NOT guarantee it being a 301. :) Yep, that's why I was looking to verify what engine it is. Knowing what engine that was in it from the factory doesn't tell me what engine is in it now. P-31 is not specific to one cubic inch. | ||
56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10179 Location: Lower Mainland BC | local2Ed - 2022-09-29 4:06 PM. P-31 is not specific to one cubic inch. Unfortunately, that would seem to be true. Somewhere (??) there must have been an engine number listing that separated P31 277s from P31 301s. The "best" (and it is not good) info that I have is from Jon G. Robinson's book "Standard Catalog of 1950s Chrysler" wherein, on page 204, he states: "Engine Numbers were: (Six) P30-1001 to P30-177184; (V-8) P31-1001 to P31-492995 and (Fury V-8) FP31-1001 to FP31-492995." There must be something wrong with the FP31 numbers because there is no way that there were 491994 Fury 2 x 4bbl engines made, even if that included the V-800 engines. So unless somebody can unearth a better source of data, the only way to determine whether a P31 V8 is a 277 or a 301 is to open up the engine to check the bore and stroke. (??) Makes no sense. Finally, by 1960, they had an engine numbering system: Edited by 56D500boy 2022-09-29 8:18 PM (1960MoparEngineNumbers.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1960MoparEngineNumbers.jpg (101KB - 80 downloads) | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1748 Location: Alaska | I have a 57 Belvedere sitting in my yard and the engine size is stamped on the left front of the block, 301 | ||
56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10179 Location: Lower Mainland BC | 58coupe - 2022-09-30 8:12 AM I have a 57 Belvedere sitting in my yard and the engine size is stamped on the left front of the block, 301 Any chance of a nice clear photo for the forum archives?? (Please) | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1748 Location: Alaska | I will try. | ||
56D500boy |
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Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 10179 Location: Lower Mainland BC | . Bumped into some new 1957 Plymouth V8 identification info (NOT verified) - the last paragraph, at the bottom of the image, below: 1618 729 = 277 1737 929 = 301 or 318 (but we have seen 318s are also stamped FP31, not just P31) Anybody able to confirm the 1737 929 or 1618 729?? Edited by 56D500boy 2022-10-02 2:40 PM (highperf3.jpg) Attachments ---------------- highperf3.jpg (56KB - 77 downloads) | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1748 Location: Alaska | Dave, the FP31 stamping on the 318 engines should only be on the dual quad Fury engines even though the basic block will still have the same part number. | ||
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