The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Electrical, Battery and ChargingMessage format
 
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-04 6:44 PM (#619059)
Subject: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
I am working on/getting swept away by a project to replace my existing 56 Dodge Generator/Power Steering Pump combination (covering the left side of my D500 hemi engine) with a separate PS pump and alternator. The PS pump will be located on the the left side of the engine and the alternator on the right side. I am following the lead of Gary S. (wayfarer) who has done this on a similarly configured 354 Chrysler hemi.

I recently bought a round-backed "bird cage" 70's Mopar alternator recommended by Sven (wizard) from Rock Auto (great price and fast delivery) (Thanks Sven) and, after testing how easy it was to remove the water manifold bolts, I bought a 5" long 3/8 x NC 16 today to test hang the new alternator and determine where the brackets will need to be attached to the 315 water manifold. BANG. Conflict.

The OE metal fuel line from the OE style 4280 fuel pump to the Carter glass bowl fuel filter on the WCFB 4 bbl carb is in the way of the alternator. Alternatives will need to be devised.

Alternatives (that I can think of):

1. Rubber line from a barbed fitting on the pump discharge to a similar fitting at the glass bowl fuel filter, tucked between the back of the alternator and the engine (block and right head) - possible heat issue = may or may not cause vapour lock in the summer.

2. New metal line to match the existing fittings at the fuel pump and glass bowl fuel filter, bent so it runs behind the alternator, between the alternator and the engine = probably heat issue, might or might not be mitigated with an asbestos-type sleeve over the fuel line by the engine.

3. Something else - this is where I need your help.

What I am trying to get rid of:



What wayfarer did on a 354 to inspire me (thanks Gary):







Now my engine and the new conflict:

Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-04 6:49 PM




(DaveFs315HemiShowingExistingFuelLine_2.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiShowingExistingFuelLine_AnnotatedToShowAlternatorAndNewFuelLinePath.jpg)



(ActualAlternatorShowingFuelLineConflict.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveFs315HemiShowingExistingFuelLine_2.jpg (178KB - 120 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiShowingExistingFuelLine_AnnotatedToShowAlternatorAndNewFuelLinePath.jpg (168KB - 121 downloads)
Attachments ActualAlternatorShowingFuelLineConflict.jpg (167KB - 124 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2022-02-04 8:17 PM (#619060 - in reply to #619059)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9605
500020002000500100
Location: So. Cal
I think you are going to regret doing all this work, only to get what? Slightly better battery charging at idle? That's about all I got (other than less weight) from swapping the generator in my '56 Savoy to a Rotten Lenard, stock looking alternator. I am not thrilled with the generator mounted pump either, but just like the large oil bath air cleaner, it has a certain appeal because it's unique. I will be looking to dig one of these systems up for my '56 Fury, so if you don't like it, I'll take it.

But if you want to make this happen, if that line is made from copper or Nickel-Copper, you should be able to just bend it toward the engine and get it to go where you want it. If not, it is pretty easy to make a new one bend right were you want it to go. Don't cheap out with rubber lines. If you use steel rather than copper, then it won't absorb as much heat and you shouldn't have vapor lock issues. Make sure to check the pressure output of your pump, as you don't want to blow the seals out of your gear box. The stock pressure is much lower than newer systems.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-04 9:21 PM (#619061 - in reply to #619060)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Thanks for the comments Nathan.

One of the main drivers for this "conversion" is to better show case the D500 315 hemi heads and their bright red paint. At present, the driver's side (left) head is screened from view by the generator/PS pump combo.

Another issue is the Eaton PS pump is leaking (weeping seal??) so that needs to be addressed in some form.

I've replaced the previous existing fuel line photo with a better one that I just took 10 minutes ago. If I hear you right, you think that I might be able to bend the existing line to solve the problem. It will have to be very close to the head. The alternator is bigger on the backside than I thought and there will only be about 1" between the alternator and the head. Not good heat wise.

I've added a photo of the actual alternator and the fuel line conflict to my first post. I couldn't get a good photo one-handed, but I think it shows the problem.

I might try bending the fuel line (gently), as you suggested. A rubber line would only be a temporary Plan B.







Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-04 9:26 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Coronet_Jeff
Posted 2022-02-05 8:53 AM (#619071 - in reply to #619061)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input


Regular

Posts: 75
252525
Dave,
The newer small blocks all route the fuel line in your proposed route. My 69 340 snakes the fuel line right up behind the alternator and up to the carb. I think any heat soak is mitigated by moving fuel when the engine is running. Of course when the engine is off heat soaks in everywhere, no way around that. In my opinion keeping the line behind the alternator keeps it tidy, routing it somewhere else would detract from the HEMI that you are trying to “show off”.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-05 4:07 PM (#619088 - in reply to #619071)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
Coronet_Jeff - 2022-02-05 5:53 AM
The newer small blocks all route the fuel line in your proposed route. My 69 340 snakes the fuel line right up behind the alternator and up to the carb. I think any heat soak is mitigated by moving fuel when the engine is running. Of course when the engine is off heat soaks in everywhere, no way around that. In my opinion keeping the line behind the alternator keeps it tidy, routing it somewhere else would detract from the HEMI that you are trying to “show off”.


Thanks Jeff and Nathan. I am trying to show off the hemi heads (on both sides of the car). Going to a separate alternator and PS pump will help with that.

I was just out in the garage and removed the fuel line so I could get the new alternator more in place to check out the new issues (there are a couple). There is a decent sized triangular opening to snake a new metal fuel line up there. I also found a photo of a 318 1971 Scamp (thanks Del S.) that shows the fuel line like I think you are describing Jeff. It seems to be covered in a metal coil for either protection or cooling or both (?). See below.



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-05 5:13 PM




(DaveFs315HemiWithBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_1.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiWithBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_2.jpg)



(DelsScampEngineBay_Alternator.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_1.jpg (186KB - 118 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_2.jpg (172KB - 118 downloads)
Attachments DelsScampEngineBay_Alternator.jpg (160KB - 114 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
dels56
Posted 2022-02-05 9:52 PM (#619108 - in reply to #619059)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 345
10010010025
Hi Dave, you can borrow my 3/8 double flare tool and tube bender (in the spring) and I think I have 3/8 copper nickel tube and spring guard. The spring guard is typically there to protect from abrasions. I don’t that is the case on the fuel line. Maybe for added heat dissipation???

Del S
Top of the page Bottom of the page
dels56
Posted 2022-02-05 10:08 PM (#619109 - in reply to #619059)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 345
10010010025
Hi again. I will be removing my generator from the left side mount (in the spring) and replacing it with an alternator as you are. My 56 is a poly but the water pump is exactly the same as the hemi. Doing this give me the incentive to rip out the ammeter and replace with a voltmeter. This also gets rid of that hot wire to and from the ammeter. Another thread another time. Dave will probably get this done before I get started and I will simply follow his lead.

Del S
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-07 11:18 PM (#619156 - in reply to #619088)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Measured the existing fuel line today. 26". Could be shorter. All I can find locally (Poly Armor brand) 5/16" fuel lines are 20" and 30" (with fittings at both ends). Therefore, I assume that I will need to cut the 30" down and re-double flare the one end. I will need to buy a flaring kit. (Will need it for the eventual dual master install anyway).

Here is a photo of the Mopar bird-cage alternator mocked-up on the engine with two of Gary S's (Wayfarer's) bracket pieces. I had to redrill the vertical piece because the Dodge 315 is smaller than the Chrysler 354 (!!! Shocking ). I am using a piece of 3/8" x 16 threaded rod for the mock-up to help figure out the actual length of bolt I will need. I might try to develop a larger vertical bracket to tie in with the water pump manifold in a third place (e.g. where I have that bolt sticking out, currently doing nothing). Something like the second photo (which I sketched over the first photo with Paint).

Where is my scrap steel plate when I need it?



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-08 1:57 AM




(DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_withBrackets.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_withBrackets_2.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_withBrackets.jpg (146KB - 112 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MockUp_withBrackets_2.jpg (233KB - 114 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2022-02-08 8:18 AM (#619166 - in reply to #619059)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9605
500020002000500100
Location: So. Cal
I highly recommend you purchase this flare tool. It requires a bench vice to hold it, but it works amazingly well. It will flare your lines with ease. The only downside is you can't do the flare while the line is still in the car. But it hasn't hindered me yet - even with the long brake line that extends to the rear brakes. It's not fun to remove & replace, but is probably easier than trying to do a flare deep inside the car.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kti-70081
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2022-02-08 9:56 AM (#619170 - in reply to #619059)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 580
500252525
Eastwood makes a tool to flare 3/16" brake line on the car for about $60.

Other than an emergency repair I don't know why there would be a need to flare a line on the vehicle.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-08 9:30 PM (#619189 - in reply to #619156)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2022-02-07 8:18 PM I am using a piece of 3/8" x 16 threaded rod for the mock-up to help figure out the actual length of bolt I will need. I might try to develop a larger vertical bracket to tie in with the water pump manifold in a third place (e.g. where I have that bolt sticking out, currently doing nothing). Something like the second photo (which I sketched over the first photo with Paint).


I really need to get back to the fuel line solution. I need to buy a flaring tool but not a $250 dollar one.

In the meantime, I cut some more 3/8 x 16 threaded rod to allow me to mock-up a "MonoBracket" for the alternator mount.

The first iteration was very crude. The second one, shown below, is still crude but a bit better. The third one, still in cardboard, will be like the second photo with the yellow lines. The fourth will likely be in Aluminum so I can get the shape refined. Eventually steel or stainless (I have piece of stainless that I forgot about but it is probably too thick.

Then I will need to work on the PS pump brackets because at this point, I am not sure which of the two pulleys will be used to drive the alternator and which the PS pump. It will make a difference in clearance between the right head and the alternator and the left head and the PS pump. When I get that figured out, I can cut the spacer tubing.



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-08 9:37 PM




(DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MonoBracket_1.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MonoBracket_2.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MonoBracket_1.jpg (126KB - 114 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MonoBracket_2.jpg (197KB - 114 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-09 6:53 PM (#619224 - in reply to #619189)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2022-02-08 6:30 PM
I really need to get back to the fuel line solution. I need to buy a flaring tool but not a $250 dollar one.
:)


Found this flaring tool. Obviously cheap (in price and maybe construction) but it might be good enough to do a few double flares.

https://www.kmstools.com/magnum-sae-double-flaring-tool-set.html



While I am busy NOT buying a flaring tool, I carried on with the "MonoBracket", moving to the next version of the cardboard template and then to 1/8" thick ABS. I played with mounting the belt tension adjustment arm on both sides of the MonoBracket. Eventually, the adjustment arm could be part of the MonoBracket. (Maybe )







(DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MonoBracket_3.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_ABSMonoBracket_1.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_ABSMonoBracket_2.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_MonoBracket_3.jpg (187KB - 120 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_ABSMonoBracket_1.jpg (160KB - 119 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMoparBirdCageAlternator_ABSMonoBracket_2.jpg (196KB - 115 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-15 8:56 PM (#619436 - in reply to #619224)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Bought some 1/8" thick powder-coated steel wooden beam reinforcement bracket to turn into a metal alternator bracket. Needs a bit of work still.

Also found my bronze "street elbow" that I had on the fuel pump back in 2016 when I was running rubber hoses and double fuel line filters. Added that to the fuel pump and then a proper fuel line fitting. Proceeded to cut and bend a coat hanger to mock up the new fuel line. Length is about 24".

Use the trial 20" fuel line to practice bending the new line. Made a few rookie mistakes, like not getting the fuel line fitting on the correct side of the bend. Also made the first bend (almost a 90 deg, at the carburetor, too long. Will have to do better when I bend and cut the 30" line.

I think that I will start the new bends and the carburetor with the "factory" Poly Armour fuel line double flare and then proceed downwards, using the coat hanger as my guide and then marking the almost vertical (and straight) final leg for the shortening cut and double flare. Tomorrow.



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-15 9:11 PM




(DaveFs315HemiWithMetalAlternatorBracketAndCoatHangerFuelLineMockUp.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiWithMetalAlternatorBracketAndCoatHangerFuelLineMockUp_2.jpg)



(DaveFs315HemiWithFirstTryAtBendingANewFuelLine_KnownToBeTooShort.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMetalAlternatorBracketAndCoatHangerFuelLineMockUp.jpg (227KB - 115 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithMetalAlternatorBracketAndCoatHangerFuelLineMockUp_2.jpg (182KB - 114 downloads)
Attachments DaveFs315HemiWithFirstTryAtBendingANewFuelLine_KnownToBeTooShort.jpg (159KB - 116 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-16 9:30 PM (#619479 - in reply to #619436)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Okay. Finally got to bending and cutting the second 5/16" line. This one started as 30" long.

I followed the bending of the coat hanger trial. Decided to start at the carb and work down to the fuel pump. As the line approached the fuel pump it was way too long so I used the tubing cutter to cut off about 6". This allowed me to get a better idea of the actual length needed. I marked the tubing on the straight bit and cut it with the tubing cutter. Then I prepped the tubing as per the YouTube DIYs and flared the cut end.

Not perfect but pretty good. Fits a bit tight (a tad too long). But I am hoping that I can tweek the bends tomorrow to a) get the line closer to that triangle where the water manifold and the head meet and b) take up some of that excess length. Worse comes to worse, I buy another $9 30" length and try again. No biggy.

Todays double flare and the new line in place (sort of).



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-16 9:55 PM




(DoubleFlareOnActualFutureFuelLine.jpg)



(NewFuelLine21inchesLongNeedsMoreTweekingBendWise.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DoubleFlareOnActualFutureFuelLine.jpg (93KB - 107 downloads)
Attachments NewFuelLine21inchesLongNeedsMoreTweekingBendWise.jpg (171KB - 115 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-19 9:13 PM (#619579 - in reply to #619479)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Checking the clearances to the Alternator, Head and Water Manifold.

Not bad. The photo doesn't do them justice. Mostly 1/2" to 3/4" clearance.

Fuel line still needs some minor tweeking at the fuel pump end.



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-19 9:16 PM




(56DodgeD500HemiAlternatorConversion_NewFuelLineRouting.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 56DodgeD500HemiAlternatorConversion_NewFuelLineRouting.jpg (173KB - 110 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-20 11:27 PM (#619620 - in reply to #619579)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2022-02-19 6:13 PM
Fuel line still needs some minor tweeking at the fuel pump end.


Did very minimal amount of tweeking today and managed to get the male fitting at the fuel pump end of the new line to turn nicely into the female fitting that I have on the pump - by hand. No cross-threading, no wrenches. Yay.

So tomorrow, I will take it a part and add some fuel line sealant and re-install, tighten and try it out, i.e. start the car with the appropriate caution (wrags to catch errant sprays, fire extiquisher handy, etc.).

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Powerflite
Posted 2022-02-21 1:50 PM (#619636 - in reply to #619059)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9605
500020002000500100
Location: So. Cal
Fuel line sealant? You shouldn't need any sealant.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-21 2:18 PM (#619639 - in reply to #619636)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
Powerflite - 2022-02-21 10:50 AM
Fuel line sealant? You shouldn't need any sealant.


In a perfect world, NO. But belts and suspenders, YES.

Better safe that sorry.





Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-21 11:18 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-22 6:12 PM (#619689 - in reply to #619639)
Subject: Re: Alternator Conversion/Fuel Line Conflict Needs Input



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2022-02-21 11:18 AM
In a perfect world, NO. But belts and suspenders, YES.
Better safe that sorry.


Put some fuel line sealant on some of the strategic threads and tightened things up (yesterday).

I let things sit overnight and then started the engine today, just before noon. (Took a little bit of cranking with that empty fuel line).

With the engine running, I checked for leaks, hoping for none.

Wrong. Two leaks. Drips. Not gushers

One at the carburetor glass bowl Carter fuel filter fuel line connection (the one that I did NOT flare) and one down by the fuel pump at the brass transition adapter between my bronze street elbow and my new flared 5/16" fuel line. The newly flared line did NOT leak (Yay)

I shut the car off. Wiped up the bits of dripping fuel and went in for lunch.

After lunch, I backed off the various fittings and then retightened them, this time with normal, not stubby wrenches (that I had used yesterday). Amazing how much more torque you get with a 10" wrench compared to a 4" wrench. (DUH! )

All good now.



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-22 6:15 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

* * * This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated * * *


(Delete all cookies set by this site)