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Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-02-16 8:39 PM (#609012)
Subject: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
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My car defeated me today. I won't blame it totally, in fact I could just blame the guy who did my exhaust system 4 years. I would, but he dropped dead at home on his days off 3.5 years ago.

He did a s**tty job fitting the old 1 7/8" downpipe to the new 2.25" system that I requested. Amongst other things, that has put a nasty twist on the system (left side) at the manifold to downpipe flange. That and the transmission shop had to drop the left exhaust to get the transmission cross member out and, in doing so, they buggered whatever was there holding the downpipe flange to the manifold. Not sure what was there then but now there are two bolts (7/16" x 14 (5/8" head)). When the transmission shop put things back together, they put in some cr@ppy generic gasket and it has been leaking a small bit since then. I ignored it for a year but this week I decided to finally fix the problem.

Yesterday I disconnected the downpipe from the manifold and wired up the exhaust pipe so I could measure the opening diameter on the manifold and the center to center spacing of the bolts so I could order a new gasket (Walker 31367 is what I selected).

Today, I got the gaskets (bought two for fun) and some Permatex Ultimat Copper Gasket maker. Come home. Clean up the bolts (with a 7/16" x 14 die). Clean off the manifold and exhaust pipe mating surfaces with a flat file (while lying on my back on the garage floor). Make sure that the bolts go all the way through the threaded holes in the manifold. Dry fit the Walker gasket with the downpipe and the two bolts. Snug them up nicely and then disassemble. Things are going as planned. (Little did I know)

I then applied gasket maker to the manifold and both sides of the Walker gasket. Try to reassemble. A bit slippy now. Get one bolt started but could NOT get the second bolt started. Numerous tries. Tried lots of different things but NOPE. The threads on the second bolt would just not catch. Spent over an hour trying. Had to give up. Cold garage. Extreme frustration. Not sure what went wrong. The dry fit wasn't a big deal

Tomorrow I am going buy some long 7/16" x 14 bolts and make them into either studs or temporary dowels so I can at least get the downpipe onto the manifold. Of course, first I will have to clean off all the gasket maker off the manifold and the down pipe flange. I will probably just use the second gasket and clean the one from today another day. I will slot the ends of the "studs/dowels" so I can install and remove them, if I feel like it (and go back to the bolts). I will buy some 7/16" x 14 flange nuts just in case.

[shakes head]



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-02-16 8:43 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-02-16 11:30 PM (#609016 - in reply to #609012)
Subject: RE: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)



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So all through the evening meal (dinner? supper?), I'm thinking what did i do wrong and how easily can I fix it? After dinner, I start checking my photo library and I think of Steve B in Australia. Some time ago, Steve sent me photos of his exhaust system (it's a bit different because his 56 Custom Royal is a RHD). I find that photo and AH HA!! Originally they had bolts facing down with nuts, etc. at least on a poly. So I get on the old garage jacket and go out to the cold garage with my trusty but abused Sony digital camera and I stick it where I can't see. AH HA!! Yes, a bolt facing down and nuts, etc on my D500 engine too.

At least now I know how to solve my problem (if I can find some nice bolts (a little longer that what I have been given by the transmission shop)):

Steve's then mine:



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-02-17 1:14 PM




(SteveBs315PolyExhaustManifoldRHD.jpg)



(56D500315DoubleRockerPassengerSideExhaustManifoldToDownPipeConnection.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments SteveBs315PolyExhaustManifoldRHD.jpg (122KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments 56D500315DoubleRockerPassengerSideExhaustManifoldToDownPipeConnection.jpg (190KB - 4 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-02-18 2:20 AM (#609037 - in reply to #609016)
Subject: RE: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)



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56D500boy - 2021-02-16 5:39 PM
Tomorrow I am going buy some long 7/16" x 14 bolts and make them into either studs or temporary dowels so I can at least get the downpipe onto the manifold. Of course, first I will have to clean off all the gasket maker off the manifold and the down pipe flange. I will probably just use the second gasket and clean the one from today another day. I will slot the ends of the "studs/dowels" so I can install and remove them, if I feel like it (and go back to the bolts). I will buy some 7/16" x 14 flange nuts just in case.



56D500boy - 2021-02-16 8:30 PM. Originally they had bolts facing down with nuts, etc. at least on a poly. So I get on the old garage jacket and go out to the cold garage with my trusty but abused Sony digital camera and I stick it where I can't see. AH HA!! Yes, a bolt facing down and nuts, etc on my D500 engine too. At least now I know how to solve my problem (if I can find some nice bolts (a little longer that what I have been given by the transmission shop)):


Well, most of that came true today.

I went to Lowes to buy bushings for the Power Brake (pedal) project and bolts and nuts for this exhaust issue.

The bolts that I bought were Grade 8 7/16" x 14 x 1.5" long (the transmission shop had used 1" bolts and I thought that 1.5" would be enough).

After taking a photo of where I had stopped in frustration yesterday, I dropped the downpipe by removing the single 7/16" x 14 x 1" bolt that I had gotten into the manifold yesterday.

Then I tried the 1.5" bolts in the manifold holes, both up from the bottom (not the way that I wanted to end up but I just wanted to be sure that I could get the bolts all the way through the threaded holes in the manifold flange. Worked fine(ish). The forward one was a bit tough.

Then I removed the 1.5" bolts and tried them from the top. NOPE. No go for different reasons. There isn't enough clearance between the manifold flange and the block to get a 1.5" bolt started in the rearward hole (which probably explains why the transmission shop used bolts up from the bottom). Despite having run the 1.5" bolt up from the bottom on the forward threaded hole, coming down from the top (there was enough clearance for 1.5" bolt at the forward hole) didn't work - the threads were too messed up (or just corroded). So a ran a 7/16" x 14 tap up from the bottom. That cleaned things up enough to get a 1.5" bolt started from the top. Then I discovered that the only way that I could turn the bolt in was with a 5/8" stubby wrench (not enough clearance for a 5/8" socket or a ratcheting wrench). Bit of a pain.

I tried different ways of getting the 1.5" bolt started from the top of the rearward hole but there just isn't enough clearance. I have to conclude that, at the factory, the exhaust manifold was loaded with the bolts in the threaded flange holes *BEFORE* the manifolds were attached to the engine. This would explain why sometimes (all the time?) the exhaust manifold casting number is not the actual part number for the exhaust manifold in the parts books (if you add parts (e.g. bolts) to a casting the part number has to change from the casting number)

I eventually conceded that I needed a different plan for the rearward hole. So I took the second 7/16" x 14 x 1.5" bolt into the house and cut off the hex head hit my Dremel and a Dremel cut-off wheel. Took some time because I found out that a Grade 8 is a tough bolt. Then I slotted one end and cleaned up the threads with a 7/16" x 14 die.

Back out to the garage where I installed my new exhaust "stud" in the rearward threaded flange hole.

Then I got the down pipe and gasket onto the "stud" at the rear and the bolt at the front and applied the Grade 8 7/16" x 14 nuts that I had bought with the bolts. Just finger tight with no lock washers for now. That is when I discovered that 1.5" bolts were not long enough. I will have to go to Lowes again and buy 2" bolts and try again tomorrow (Thurs).

Photos from today, starting with where I left off yesterday (with just one 1" bolt in place):

Edited by 56D500boy 2021-02-18 11:17 AM




(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WhereIQuitOnFeb16_2021.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningAOneInch7_16x14BoltThroughTheRearMostHole.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningAOneAndAHalfInch7_16x14BoltThroughTheRearMostHole.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningA7_16x14TapThroughTheFrontMostHole_1.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningA7_16x14TapThroughTheFrontMostHole_2.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WithAOneAndAHalfInch7_16x14BoltDownFromTheTop_FrontMostHole.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WithAHeadlessAOneAndAHalfInch7_16x14BoltUpFromTheBottome_RearMostHole.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WithStudInRearMostHoleAndBoltInFrontHole_Annotated.jpg)



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Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WhereIQuitOnFeb16_2021.jpg (179KB - 1 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningAOneInch7_16x14BoltThroughTheRearMostHole.jpg (141KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningAOneAndAHalfInch7_16x14BoltThroughTheRearMostHole.jpg (159KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningA7_16x14TapThroughTheFrontMostHole_1.jpg (166KB - 3 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_RunningA7_16x14TapThroughTheFrontMostHole_2.jpg (117KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WithAOneAndAHalfInch7_16x14BoltDownFromTheTop_FrontMostHole.jpg (129KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WithAHeadlessAOneAndAHalfInch7_16x14BoltUpFromTheBottome_RearMostHole.jpg (135KB - 2 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideDownPipeToExhaustManifold_WithStudInRearMostHoleAndBoltInFrontHole_Annotated.jpg (146KB - 3 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-02-18 9:55 PM (#609049 - in reply to #609037)
Subject: RE: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2021-02-17 11:20 PM
Then I got the down pipe and gasket onto the "stud" at the rear and the bolt at the front and applied the Grade 8 7/16" x 14 nuts that I had bought with the bolts. Just finger tight with no lock washers for now. That is when I discovered that 1.5" bolts were not long enough. I will have to go to Lowes again and buy 2" bolts and try again tomorrow (Thurs).


Went to Lowes. Turns out that you can't buy a fully threaded 2" long 7/16" x 14 bolts (there is a shoulder). So I bought two cheap partially threaded ones and tried to fully thread them at home. NOPE. FAIL.

After lunch I called ahead and went to one of our best nuts and bolts houses (Pacific Fasteners) and bought a 6 ft stick of 7/16" x 14 threaded stainless steel rod (and nuts and lock washers). Got it home and cut two pieces 2.5" long. Slotted one end for a screw driver and then installed them, one at a time (finger tight for now).

I didn't install the gasket or the lock washers at this point. Just trialing. 2.5" isn't much too long. I will probably remove these "studs" tomorrow and make the exposed ends prettier with the Dremel (they look like cr@p right now).

I also trimmed that Walker 31367 to the proper shape (I hope). We'll see tomorrow.

Some photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2021-02-19 2:21 AM




(56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_RearWardStudFrom716-14ThreadedRod_RoomForLockWashersAndGasket.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_RearStudFrom716-14ThreadedRod_ForwardWithBoltFromTop.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_ForwardStudFrom716-14ThreadedRod_RoomForLockWashersAndGasket.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_FrontAndRearStudsFrom716-14ThreadedRod_RoomForGasketAndLockWashers.jpg)



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Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_RearWardStudFrom716-14ThreadedRod_RoomForLockWashersAndGasket.jpg (124KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_RearStudFrom716-14ThreadedRod_ForwardWithBoltFromTop.jpg (137KB - 1 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_ForwardStudFrom716-14ThreadedRod_RoomForLockWashersAndGasket.jpg (137KB - 1 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DriversSideExhaustManifold_FrontAndRearStudsFrom716-14ThreadedRod_RoomForGasketAndLockWashers.jpg (163KB - 1 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-02-19 9:48 PM (#609088 - in reply to #609049)
Subject: RE: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
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After spending more that an hour on my back, scraping and sanding the Ultra Copper (from the other day's failed attempt) off the manifold flange and downpipe flange, I reinstalled the "new" 2.25" stainless studs and dry trialed the trimmed Walker 31367 gasket. Happy with what I saw, I disassembled everything (leaving the studs) and ran two 3/32 beads of Ultra Copper around both sides of the center metal gasket ring. Then I very carefully re-installed the gasket over the studs and stuck it to the manifold flange while I maneuvered the downpipe onto the studs. I had to pull the studs out a bit more (with a screw driver in the slots that I Dremelled in yesterday).

Then I applied flange nuts to the bottom side of the studs and nuts and lock washers on the top (the studs are long enough - on purpose - to do that). However after tightening the nuts on the rearward stud, I decided to remove the forward stud to see if I could install the 1.5" Grade 8 bolt instead. That worked, even enough poking through the top to add a somewhat redundant flange nut on the top. (I have stainless lock washer under the head of the Grade 8 bolt). I tightened things a bit and then backed things off to let the Ultra Copper cure overnight. Tomorrow I will torque everything to within an inch (mm) of their lives.

Then I will start the engine and hope like living h3LL that the exhaust leak is gone. If it isn't I will just laugh (at myself - for trying).

Today:



(56DodgeD500DoubleRockerDriversSideExhaustManifoldToDownPipe_RearwardStudAndDoubleNuts_Forward1point5inchGrade8Bolt_Annotated.jpg)



(56DodgeD500DoubleRockerDriversSideExhaustManifoldToDownPipe_RearwardStudAndDoubleNuts.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments 56DodgeD500DoubleRockerDriversSideExhaustManifoldToDownPipe_RearwardStudAndDoubleNuts_Forward1point5inchGrade8Bolt_Annotated.jpg (165KB - 1 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeD500DoubleRockerDriversSideExhaustManifoldToDownPipe_RearwardStudAndDoubleNuts.jpg (169KB - 1 downloads)
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Steve1956
Posted 2021-02-20 4:58 AM (#609099 - in reply to #609088)
Subject: RE: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)


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Good luck tomorrow Dave. I have been following, and share your pain with things going wrong...I had a 35 Desoto that did that to me with everything I tried to fix over 27 years...sold it to buy the 56 Dodge Custom Royal now under restoration. I think things will go better for me with this car following the many tips I have picked up reading about your repairs / upgrades. Steve B, Australia.
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-02-20 11:53 AM (#609110 - in reply to #609099)
Subject: RE: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)



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Steve1956 - 2021-02-20 1:58 AM
Good luck tomorrow Dave. I have been following, and share your pain with things going wrong...I had a 35 Desoto that did that to me with everything I tried to fix over 27 years...sold it to buy the 56 Dodge Custom Royal now under restoration. I think things will go better for me with this car following the many tips I have picked up reading about your repairs / upgrades. Steve B, Australia.


Thanks Steve. I'm always willing to share both the good and the bad as I work through the big and little things that need (some) improvement on my 56 Dodge. Hopefully, others can learn from both my successes and failures. Typically, I never actually fail but it might take a lot of work to "win". (All of my stuff is small potatoes compared to many others, like those creating a 59 Dodge Convertible from a 64 880 convertible, so I know that most of my projects are trivial in the big picture).

Nevertheless, there aren't too many folks actively working on the last of the king-pin orphan 55-56 Mopars here so, in my opinion, any information about them (good and bad) is better than no information.

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56D500boy
Posted 2021-02-21 2:07 AM (#609118 - in reply to #609110)
Subject: RE: Attaching a down pipe to an exhaust manifold (56 Dodge D500)



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Okay. The FL is back. Thanks to however fixed the problem.

I got my driver's side exhaust manifold to downpipe exhaust leak fixed.

Everything that I documented above seems to have done the trick. All I did today was to tighten up the bolt and the nuts on the stud (and the top of the bolt). I used the GUTENTITE procedure.

No more annoying ticking leak (at least for the moment). Sounds great.

Now to get back to the Power Brake project (I bought some bushings while I was at Lowes getting bolts and stuff for this exhaust project). Now to make the bushings work.

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