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57 Suburban 325 Poly 354 Hemi direct bolt in? Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I've got the 325 Poly out of my 57 Dodge Suburban to freshen it up. BUT, I just ran across a 354 Hemi. It's got the adapter plate which appears to be the same as mine. My question is this, would it be a direct bolt in? Thanks, Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | The motor mounts aren't quite the same as the Chrysler is a little wider than the Dodge, but it isn't hard to make it work. Exhaust isn't hard as long as you use manifolds. Other than that, it's a direct swap. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | So I would need to use the manifolds that are/were on the poly? For the motor mounts I may need to so some fabrication/alteration to my K frame? Thanks, Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | No, you have to use the Chrysler manifolds of course. I was just saying that you can't use the ebay shorty headers on it. You wouldn't modify the frame mounts, just modify the motor mounts or use different ones, I'm not sure. You may be able to use offset mounts and just rotate them to make it work out. Edited by Powerflite 2020-12-08 11:16 PM | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | The bell pattern is same on both blocks. What tranny do you have? | ||
wayfarer |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 888 Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | As mentioned, pretty much a bolt-in. Use your converter. If the block plate is the same use either one. If different then use yours. Engine mounts should be an easy fix once you drop it in the hole and see what the actual difference is. Yes, the 354 is a wee bit wider. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Thanks guys. My trans is the cast iron Torqueflite. I think the number is a466 but I'd have to look it up. | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9855 Location: Lower Mainland BC | jaded13640 - 2020-12-10 6:01 PM Thanks guys. My trans is the cast iron Torqueflite. I think the number is a466 but I'd have to look it up. If it's cast iron, it will be an A-466 Torqueflite. The actual transmission is stamped upside down on flat spot on the side of the transmission on the filler tube side, just above the fluid pan. Like this one (a 1736 544 A-466 Torqueflite from a 57 Windsor ): Edited by 56D500boy 2020-12-10 9:19 PM (DaveFs1736413Case1736544K_TFtransmission_PassengerSide_Detail.jpg) Attachments ---------------- DaveFs1736413Case1736544K_TFtransmission_PassengerSide_Detail.jpg (142KB - 248 downloads) | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | We picked up the Hemi. Here's a picture of it. Thanks, Wayne (354 Hemi.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 354 Hemi.jpg (42KB - 246 downloads) | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I finally got around to taking the numbers off the Hemi. NE5634162 From what I can deduce the first four digits tell you the year, what make it's in, New Yorker, that it's a 354 four barrel. Any more any one can tell me about this? I get that the numbers 56 mean it's a 56 but I have no clue how the rest of the numbers are decoded. Thanks, Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Yep, 56 New Yorker = 354 hemi. 34162 is the motor serial number. That number should be stamped on your frame somewhere and on the IBM card if it's the original engine. That's as much as you can get from it. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Thanks! I didn't realize that much of it would be the serial number. But since I'm trying to understand and learn what do the first four digits refer to? Is it as simple as NE means New Yorker? Could it be that simple? 56 meaning a 56 would be pretty simple too. But how is it that we determined it was a 345 from these numbers? Is it determined or implied because the New Yorker would have ONLY had that size engine available in 1956? I find this whole topic very interesting. Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Yes, it is that simple. NE stood for New Yorker and the 354 hemi was the only option for the '56 New Yorker. | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9855 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Powerflite - 2020-12-24 11:19 PM Yes, it is that simple. NE stood for New Yorker and the 354 hemi was the only option for the '56 New Yorker. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Thanks guys. I didn't realize that NE could possibly have referred to New Yorker until I typed them both and wondered to myself, "could it really be that simple or is it just a coincidence?" I assumed the 56 referred to the year but with later engines they seemed to use motors made the previous year on a current year car. So I really wasn't sure if the 56 meant it was a 57 car's engine or not. As usual you guys hooked me up. Thanks again! Wayne | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Hey guys. As the temps are starting to get warmer here I've been planning my steps to get the Suburban back together. First I'm going to remove my existing manual steering, then paint the firewall and fender wells as they look really crappy. The hemi looks nice in the picture but it needs to be repainted. What did they call that silver they used on the engines? Is it available at parts stores and if not, what would be the closest I could buy in the "engine paint" grade of paint? I bagged and tagged EVERYTHING but still managed to loose the little phillips screws that hold the mesh pieces onto the transmission vent openings. Any idea what would be exact that I could use...like a hardware store size and thread? The whole transmission came out beautiful the way I painted everything. I've been "offsetting" the colors like for example the trans case is cast aluminum color, the pan is flat black and the bolts are silver. I was thinking about trying to find some black oxide philips screws for the vents. But only if the thread is correct. I know I'm going a little overboard as far as making things pretty that will never be seen by anyone but me but that's just what I do. I painted all the break stuff as nice as the paint on the car. Nobody will see the beautiful paint job under the brake drums but I'll know it's there. Thanks guys, Wayne Edited by jaded13640 2021-04-01 10:30 PM | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I got the engine and trans married together. It was a bitch getting the converter nuts on but I got em. I didn't use the factory nuts and lock washers, I used lock nuts without washers. It was a lot easier than trying to get a washer on and then starting the nut in the tiny little space there is to work with. It worked out very nice. Here's a pic... Wayne (motor and trans.jpg) Attachments ---------------- motor and trans.jpg (100KB - 184 downloads) | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Sorry, but you have the wrong oil pan on there. You need the '57-'58 front sump oil pan. You'll also need the appropriate pump pickup for it. I think you can get the pickup new from HotHeads, but you're going to have to find the oil pan used. The motor mounts are not the round type you need for the '57 frame either, unless you are doing a custom mount on the frame. Good thing you posted a picture of it. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I appreciate you pointing that out. I had assumed that the 325 poly block would have the same pan rail as the 56 354 Hemi. Wrong..... So, I'm in search of a center/front sump from, among others, 57 58 Chrysler. I'm doing the research now and there are several others that would have the pan I need. I don't recall the size but there was a spitfire poly that's supposed to have the correct pan. I'll dig around and if any of you know of any used ones for sale, please let me know. Thanks, Wayne | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | jaded13640 - 2021-04-17 9:35 PM The 331/354 are rear sump & the 392 is middle sump. non came with front sump. You might be able to cut the bottom off & reverse it....I appreciate you pointing that out. I had assumed that the 325 poly block would have the same pan rail as the 56 354 Hemi. Wrong..... So, I'm in search of a center/front sump from, among others, 57 58 Chrysler. I'm doing the research now and there are several others that would have the pan I need. I don't recall the size but there was a spitfire poly that's supposed to have the correct pan. I'll dig around and if any of you know of any used ones for sale, please let me know. Thanks, Wayne | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1739 Location: Alaska | The 57-58 354 poly engines in the Chryslers used the same oil pan as the 392 and may be easier to find. | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | 58coupe - 2021-04-19 9:56 AM He said he needs front sump.....The 57-58 354 poly engines in the Chryslers used the same oil pan as the 392 and may be easier to find. | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | George, front & mid are two descriptions of the same thing. If you want to be exact about it, it is a mid-front sump as it isn't exactly in the middle. But it should be clear because there was only one of these pans built. There was never a purely mid sump or purely front sump pan made. | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Here's your chance for one. Needs some work, but grab it before I do. https://www.ebay.com/itm/392-Hemi-oil-pan-354-vintage-chrysler/23371... | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | Powerflite - 2021-04-19 5:01 PM Well, it's strange that Leo's Book lists R & C for Chr & DeSoto, F for Dodge only.George, front & mid are two descriptions of the same thing. If you want to be exact about it, it is a mid-front sump as it isn't exactly in the middle. But it should be clear because there was only one of these pans built. There was never a purely mid sump or purely front sump pan made. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Thanks Powerflite. I'll look at it now. Question, would the oil pickup on my 325 poly work on my 354 Hemi? It only helps me so much to have a pan that'll work if I don't have a pickup that will. Thanks, Wayne | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I bought that pan but I'm still looking for a nicer one. Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | The oil pump isn't the same, but I'm not sure about interchanging the pickup. You'll have to give it a try and see. But I think HotHeads can get you the pickup if it doesn't work out. | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | Powerflite - 2021-04-21 10:01 AM Actually there's 2 OEM O/Ps that fit all tall deck hemis, so they should interchange. Just a matter of swapping the oil pick up. For that matter the Melling 392 pump should fit.The oil pump isn't the same, but I'm not sure about interchanging the pickup. You'll have to give it a try and see. But I think HotHeads can get you the pickup if it doesn't work out. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Mopar1, Is that oil pump a counter item or NOS type situation? I haven't checked out the hot heads deal yet. I'm not actually totally married to the pan I bought, it's pretty rough and I went to a ton of work to make the trans to look perfect and the chassis will be por15'ed as well. But I'll use it if I can't find a better one. Thanks, Wayne | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | jaded13640 - 2021-04-21 3:25 PM The Melling 392 pump returned to production some years ago, don't know if it still is. Hope so. The HH one uses an adaptor plate & a moded LA O/P with a replacement shaft. Been a number of reports of the shaft failing, it's not hardend, others have had good results.Mopar1, Is that oil pump a counter item or NOS type situation? I haven't checked out the hot heads deal yet. I'm not actually totally married to the pan I bought, it's pretty rough and I went to a ton of work to make the trans to look perfect and the chassis will be por15'ed as well. But I'll use it if I can't find a better one. Thanks, Wayne | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | Are the engines out of the car? Overhauling the 354? You might want to check the length of the , hmmm, dizzy shaft or Int. shaft, recollect reports of some oddball lengths on some low decks made while the 392s were being made between the various types of engines. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | The motors are not in the car. The original 325 poly is on a stand. The hemi is on a cart on blocks. I was going to drop the poly pan, remove the pick up tube, pick up the hemi and trans with the cherry picker, remove the pan and see if the pick up with work with the center sump pan but it's too cold and I don't have the center sump pan yet. But that's the plan, see if the poly pick up with work on the hemi with the center sump pan when it comes. Wayne Edited by jaded13640 2021-04-21 8:41 PM | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | I just realized I got a bit confused on the year of the 354. You have a '56 car engine. The 392 pump won't bolt right on. "Wayfarer", who posted above, own QEC. On his site there is how to mod your block to take the 392 pump. If you install the int shaft you'll see one bolt lines up perfect, the other is 1/2 a bolt off. fill the off hole by screwing in threaded rod flush to the block and (you or a machine shop) drill & tap a hole in the right place. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | So does anyone know if the 57 Dodge 325 Poly oil pick up tube will work in the 56 Hemi and the front/mid sump pan? I got the pan and would like to know if the pick up with work before dropping the pan and taking the pick up off the Poly for no reason. Thanks in advance, Wayne I was just out in the shop to start the process of cleaning and straightening out the bent up pan. I looked inside the pan and it was clearly written 392. We bought the pan which was advertised as a 354 pan. I think I read that they were interchangable but I'm not 100% sure. So does anyone know if the oil pans are interchangable between the 354 and the 392 AND if the oil pick up tube from the 57 poly will work with the hemi and mid sump pan? Thanks, Wayne Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-03 3:02 PM | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | jaded13640 - 2021-05-03 12:18 PM The pan will fit 354 CAR blocks, NE 56 is a car block. As far as the pick up is concerned...at one point the pick ups were a swinging style, at some point they became screw in, think the 325 is screw in but not sure. You'll have to check that. Then test fit the pump with pick up & the pan to see if you have clearance.So does anyone know if the 57 Dodge 325 Poly oil pick up tube will work in the 56 Hemi and the front/mid sump pan? I got the pan and would like to know if the pick up with work before dropping the pan and taking the pick up off the Poly for no reason. Thanks in advance, Wayne I was just out in the shop to start the process of cleaning and straightening out the bent up pan. I looked inside the pan and it was clearly written 392. We bought the pan which was advertised as a 354 pan. I think I read that they were interchangable but I'm not 100% sure. So does anyone know if the oil pans are interchangable between the 354 and the 392 AND if the oil pick up tube from the 57 poly will work with the hemi and mid sump pan? Thanks, Wayne | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | for the hell of it I called Hot Heads. Turns out they have the pick up, a whopping 39 bucks, I said, "how fast can ya get it here". so I didn't drop the pan on the Poly. It's still a good motor. Just needs freshening. Thanks for the info. Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | You called them "for the hell of it"? I told you they had the pickup for it in the last three posts of mine. Why should I bother to answer you if you don't listen to what I say? | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I'm sorry but you misunderstood because I didn't give enough information. You did mention hot heads somewhere up there but I honestly couldn't find it just now when I looked. I looked on their website and they didn't show a pick up. They showed everything else under the sun but not the pick up and of course I had been thinking I would use the one out of my poly. I changed my mind at the last minute and decided not to remove the pan and further caniblize the poly. I called hotheads "for the hell of it" part was to see if had the part that they did not have listed on the website. So I "just for the hell of it", called instead of relying on what I saw on the website I meant. I was shocked to find out it only only a few bucks and that cemented my decision not to further canibilize the poly, ESPECIALLY if the part was on the shelf and that cheap. If you specifically said, "Hot heads carries the pick up" and out of 30 or more replies I missed it, I'm really sorry, I wasn't ignoring you. I didn't see it. But I do really appreciate you helping me out, I honestly didn't ignore it. I missed it. Wayne Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-04 8:12 PM | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | No problem, thanks for the explanation. Sounds like a fun project so I hope this gets you where you need to be. Now might be a good time to decide if you want to replace the rear main seal & install a plug in place of the oil bypass valve, that sits under the rear main cap. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I'm working on cleaning and painting the engine bay. The exterior of the car looks pretty nice but the engine bay looks terrible. I spent most of the day on it and I feel like I barely made a dent. Years and years of leaky motor and transmission left a huge mess. What size of a plug do I need? Is it like a freeze plug or is it threaded? Thanks, Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | It has nothing to do with the coolant. It involves your internal oil passage in your motor. Originally, the factory installed a bypass valve underneath the main cap that would bypass the oil supply in case the oil filter became plugged. But with newer filters, you risk that the oil will never go through the filter and always bypass it. So people generally remove the valve and replace it with a plug when they swap to a newer style filter to ensure that the oil will always be filtered. You have to make sure you install it the proper direction and with the window opening toward the cross passages. You can purchase it from Hot Heads. https://www.hothemiheads.com/oiling_system/oil_bypass_plug.html But I have run many engines with a newer filter, without swapping out the original valve, without any issues so it may not be fully necessary - especially if you change your filter often. Edited by Powerflite 2021-05-05 12:34 AM | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | Powerflite - 2021-05-04 2:07 AM are they OEM screen style or just holes drilled in a piece of sheet metal? You called them "for the hell of it"? I told you they had the pickup for it in the last three posts of mine. Why should I bother to answer you if you don't listen to what I say? | ||
Mopar1 |
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Expert Posts: 3027 Location: N.W. Fla. | Powerflite - 2021-05-04 11:30 PM I believe that the by pass is actually in the OEM filter base that's discarded when you convert it to spin on. The So called "By pass" under the main cap is an anti drain back check ball. Some oil gets around it unfiltered but there's no way any substantial amount of oil could get by if the filter clogged.It has nothing to do with the coolant. It involves your internal oil passage in your motor. Originally, the factory installed a bypass valve underneath the main cap that would bypass the oil supply in case the oil filter became plugged. But with newer filters, you risk that the oil will never go through the filter and always bypass it. So people generally remove the valve and replace it with a plug when they swap to a newer style filter to ensure that the oil will always be filtered. You have to make sure you install it the proper direction and with the window opening toward the cross passages. You can purchase it from Hot Heads. https://www.hothemiheads.com/oiling_system/oil_bypass_plug.html But I have run many engines with a newer filter, without swapping out the original valve, without any issues so it may not be fully necessary - especially if you change your filter often. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Mopar1, I don't know about the pick-up. I couldn't find it on the website so I haven't seen a picture. Its coming from California so I won't see it till Friday if I'm lucky. When I do I'll post a pic. As for the check ball thing, I wasn't planning on dropping the main cap. I'm just swapping the pan and putting the the new pick up tube on. I didn't think about ordering a new gasket or anything. I might be able to get one through a guy in Flint. I should have ordered one when I ordered the darned pick up....didn't think about it. When I couldn't find the pick up tube on the website I was kind of surprised when I called and he said, "yep, got one, it's in stock, 37 dollars". I was like holy sh.., gimme! I didn't thing about the darned gasket and front and rear seals. I'll look around tomorrow. Thanks. Wayne | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | George, it is actually both a bypass valve and an anti-drain back. (Hemi Bypass Valve.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Hemi Bypass Valve.jpg (249KB - 164 downloads) | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | I think I'll be leaving that in. My pick-up tube came today...well, a box from Hot Heads came today... We'll see if it's the right part and such. I'll take a picture of it and post it on here. Thanks, Wayne | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | Here's a pick of that Pick-up I got from Hot Heads Wayne (pickup.jpg) Attachments ---------------- pickup.jpg (57KB - 157 downloads) | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9604 Location: So. Cal | Looks pretty nice, better than I expected. Thanks for posting the picture. | ||
jaded13640 |
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Veteran Posts: 295 | No problem. I'm going to start a new thread, I'm cleaning up and preparing for paint the engine bay and I'm quickly finding a bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced. The control arm bushing and ball joints and some other stuff has been replaced but the sway bar bushings and pin bushings junk. Anyway, I'm getting a list of things together than I'll need and post them in a new thread to see if anyone knows of a good source for them. If PST has the sway bar stuff it didn't come with the kit the previous owner purchased to have installed on it. I'm also got to remove the manual gear and column and replace it with the power unit I found and cleaned and painted. I don't see any way the brackets that I got with the pump are going to be of any use on the hemi. The power steering system was on a 57 Plymouth v8 car but has things mounted completely differently than the on the Poly. I've seen where they're a pump is coupled to the back of a generator...I'm not using a generator. I'm using the alternator I used on the poly. Anyway, I have lots of things to think about all at once. The initial idea of "power wash the engine bay and paint what I have to didn't work out....EVERYTHING in the engine bay is in really bad shape, either 19 coats of pain, overspray or surface rust has make it a monster of a project. | ||
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