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| Bummer, the Hemi has a swinging pick-up and the pan won't clear the oil pump even if the pick up would reach to the center sump but it doesn't. He also put a windage tray in it. He claims that the pump and pick up are factory. Hot Heads evidently really knows there stuff so I'm not sure where the confusion came from but it looks like I'm going to need a different pump.
The pan I bought for it was listed as a 354 pump but, in paint pen, it said, "392". The guy I talked to at Hot Heads said they were interchangeable.
So I guess I'm calling Hot Heads tomorrow to try and get this pain in the azz sorted out. There was discussion towards the beginning of this thread about oil pumps but it all went way over my head. I know RB engines like the back of my hand but I know nothing about the early Hemi.
Always some darn thing!
Wayne |
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| So I called Hot Heads and ordered the 340 conversion pump. That pump will accept the pick up tube I already bought.
I called the guy I bought this Hemi off of to see if he used an aftermarket pump or something. He said he didn't but he'd call the guy he got it from. That guy didn't replace the pump but he did put the windage tray in it. I asked him if he had a nice pan since the one I bought it so banged up, he did but gave me a number for another guy who has an engine shop that specializes in early Hemis. I talked to the guy for about an hour and learned a lot AND I've got a nice pan coming in primer in a few days. I'll be sure to post a pic of it with the new pan on it before I put it in.
Thanks guys,
Wayne |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | jaded13640 - 2021-05-12 12:21 PM
So I called Hot Heads and ordered the 340 conversion pump. That pump will accept the pick up tube I already bought.
As I mentioned before, there's been a number of reports of failure of the HH replacement shaft. I had just bought the HH set up when all that came up. I pitched the HH pump and used the adaptor plate to install a stock LA HV pump & had Kent Redd (RIP) make up a custom int. shaft. |
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Location: So. Cal | I have been running the HH 340 pump in my 331 hemi with around 40K miles on it now. That was quite a while ago, but I haven't had an issue with it. It might be different if you are racing it to high rpms alot, but that's not how I use mine.
Edited by Powerflite 2021-05-12 6:20 PM
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| Thanks! I too am not going to hot rodding this motor much either.
Mopar1, very creative. I too am going to be using the adapter and the 340 pump from Hot Heads.
Look at how far I gutted the car to be able to do a nice job on it. I had assumed the suspension parts were find but upon closer inspection I find that they were hit. I ordered a kit from PST which should come in a few days.
I can't believe how much work this has turned into...What a trainwrecK! We removed so much stuff the front end tried to come up and pull a wheelie. I have it strapped to the arm of the hoist now and threw 150 pounds of sandbags to keep it down! We rolled the car forward as far as we could and it still wanted to lift up.
Wayne
Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-12 10:11 PM
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| Question, was the 354 Hemi available in the 57 Dodge Suburban?
My plan has been to let people assume it's the motor that came in.
If it could have had the 354 Hemi in 57 I've got a little problem with my ruse, my valve covers say Chrysler right on them! LOL That could be hard to explain.
Either way, available in the 57 Suburban or not, I still want Dodge valve covers. Would the 57 354 Hemi in a Dodge say "red ram" or something else?
Thanks,
Wayne
Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-21 4:32 PM
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Location: So. Cal | You must be referring to the famed D501. I don't believe that any of them were made with wagons. They used Dodge truck valve covers that had no lettering on them. I am using the same valve covers on the 331 hemi in my '56 Plymouth. But if you would like to know what they looked like, they were dual quad, with '57 side saddle air cleaners, painted as shown in this picture. The second picture is of my '56 Savoy.
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | jaded13640 - 2021-05-21 1:30 PM
Question, was the 354 Hemi available in the 57 Dodge Suburban?
My plan has been to let people assume it's the motor that came in.
If it could have had the 354 Hemi in 57 I've got a little problem with my ruse, my valve covers say Chrysler right on them! LOL That could be hard to explain.
Either way, available in the 57 Suburban or not, I still want Dodge valve covers. Would the 57 354 Hemi in a Dodge say "red ram" or something else?
Wayne: You must have missed my previous 354 "Dodge" answer above:
56D500boy - 2021-05-10 6:27 PM.
2. There is no such thing as a Dodge 354. The only Dodges that got 354s were 6 or 7 1957 Dodge D501s and those engines were Chrysler-based. The "best" you could do to eliminate the "Chrysler FirePower" on your valve covers is to find and buy some 354 truck valve covers. Even then, there might be an issue if they do/or don't have the solid lifter bumps. Nathan (Powerflite) and Swept57 are the experts on these. (See below)
Nathan has the detailed answer regarding the smooth valve covers.
Edited by 56D500boy 2021-05-21 7:09 PM
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| Wow, I really did miss the boat there. I did look at the pictures and then got disgusted because I didn't want to have to match body color.
This entire project was supposed to go like this, Pull the trans because it needs to be rebuilt but since the motor's tired and in need of a freshening, pull them out together, powerwash the engine bay, paint everything flat black and drop everything back in. Then we found that hemi, then I saw just how rough the firewall was, then I noticed how bad the control arm bushings were....
Hell I may never get this darn project done. LOL
As for the valve covers, I'd be fine with the blank ones. I didn't realize there were any blank ones, I thought they all either said Chrysler firepower or Dodge Red Ram.
I actually don't know if my motor has solid or hydraulic lifters.
And by the way, I don't know anyone's name because nobody uses it when they post. Who is Nathan? I'd like to see his comments on the valve covers.
I actually assumed that since the Suburban was available with a V8 you could have ordered with the Hemi or Poly. I genuinely didn't know that they didn't get the 354 hemis.
Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-21 8:18 PM
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Location: So. Cal | 1. Your 354 hemi has hydraulic lifters. The only Chrysler hemis that came with solid lifters were Chrysler 300, Dodge D501 (chrysler 354 hemi), and marine engines.
2. Each division had its own motors that were unique. Dodge had their own hemi motors, DeSoto had their own hemi motors, Chrysler had their own hemi motors & Plymouth had their own poly motors. You wouldn't typically find a Chrysler motor in a DeSoto, or in a Dodge. But there were some RARE exceptions like the D501 and other exceptions like large Dodge trucks.
3. Your car could have been ordered as a D500, which would have received a Dodge 325 hemi motor. Not the same as a 354 Chrysler hemi. But there were a very few D501's made for racing in '57 that did have the 354 Chrysler hemi in them.
4. You could convert your original 325 poly motor into a 325 hemi motor by swapping the pistons, heads, rockers, valve covers, spark plug tubes, pushrods with 325 Dodge hemi parts. Dodge hemi parts don't interchange with Chrysler hemi parts.
Edited by Powerflite 2021-05-21 8:51 PM
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| Wow, thanks a lot. You really know this stuff.
So the 325 Hemi for Dodge, what did those valve covers look like? Did they say anything on them or were they plain?
Were there any plain valve covers that will correctly bolt onto the 56 Hemi I have? I think there was some mention of the truck ones being the same maybe.
It's interesting seeing the race optioned motors. I'd love to be able to find a pair of air cleaners like that, I've got a dual 4 intake for the 354 that I got from the guy we got the Hemi from. I understand the correct cam is necessary or you actually loose power but hot heads probably has one available...maybe even one that loped a little. I've even got a set of the correct carbs. They're NOS. We were going to use them on my buddies 62 880 with the long rams. It wasn't until I had them bolted on and was trying figure everything out that he tells they were actually for an inline dual 4 barrel. I'm like...well that's probably going to be a problem. I wondered why only one carb had a choke. So he ordered the correct carbs for the long rams, pretty penny too. Anyway, that's not something I would consider doing now anyway. This job turned into a nightmare of extras. I just spent another $193 for the inner tie rod ends that ARE NOT included in the front end "complete rebuild kit" from whoever it is now that used to be PST. Kanter I think. Seems like if your outer tie rod ends were sloppy it would be a given that the inners would be at least somewhat sloppy. But I knew the deal, those kits have always been like that. No drag link, idler arm inner tie rod ends, sleeves or pitman arms. Not exactly what I would call a very COMPLETE "complete rebuild kit" but I digress. LOL
I'm still working on getting the matching paint for the firewall. The guy from the paint store keeps blowing me off. He says he'll call me and bring his scanner thing to match the paint on the body but now another day went by without a call. Guess I'll have to offer him $50 bucks extra for his time. I was going to flip him an extra 50 anyway when he showed up but since that's not happening...LOL The thing is that the color on the car is not the correct colors. It's not the "coral" that was on it. There's way less red in it and it actually looks like pink to me. We didn't know it wasn't correct until I started stripping the firewall and behind the master cylinder plate, plain as day, a whole different color than what's on the car. And to think of all the people I told "yes, it's the original color, coral" at cruises...
I can't thank you guys enough for helping me through this stuff. I do ok in most areas of repairs but when it comes to what will interchange and why, I get lost pretty quick.
I'm also extremely lucky to have a buddy who's a literal genius and is a manager of a parts store. I think I payed like $89 for a pair of brake hoses for the front of the wagon when I was going though the brakes last year. When I got to the back brakes it turned out the rear hoses were pretty bad too. The rears were about the same price as the fronts, I can't recall which old Mopar parts source I used for the fronts. But he measured the length, thread type, etc and it turned out a typical GM vehicle had nearly the exact same hoses. Instead of spending 90 bucks and tying up my lift for a week getting the "correct" hoses my buddy walks up drops two boxes on the counter, "$10.89 a piece" he says. I coulda s**t! No hassle, no waiting, nothing and they were even on the shelf at that store! LOL Well, at least I was impressed anyway.
So thanks again and I'll be sure to post a couple of pics of the car when it's completed.
Wayne
Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-22 2:14 AM
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | .
Here is a photo of a 1957 Dodge with a dual quad Super D500 325 cu in engine. If you could find the smooth 354 valve covers (without the embossed "Chrysler FirePower") you could fake a dual quad 354 into looking like this Super D500. Few people would know.
REFERENCE (you might want to read):
A brief history of The First Generation Dodge “Hemi” 1953 to 1957
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=75719&...
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| I'll bet it's near impossible to find those air cleaners. I've heard of repops but not of this particular style. The ones I'm thinking of were for the long ram cars.
Wayne |
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | jaded13640 - 2021-05-22 1:15 PM
I'll bet it's near impossible to find those air cleaners. I've heard of repops but not of this particular style. The ones I'm thinking of were for the long ram cars.
I'm guessing you can find what you need if you start looking.
Here is some repop Oval housings:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273922299361?epid=27006652672&hash=item3fc7...
Here are some NOS oval filters:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273922299361?epid=27006652672&hash=item3fc7...
Here is a 2 bbl side saddle that you could modify:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/312645083165?hash=item48cb19601d:g:rUIAAOSw...
A call/email to John F. at Big M would likely get you something. Of French Lake Auto Parts or Wildcat Mopar or Arizona Mopar or....
You just have to start looking...
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| 56D500boy - 2021-05-22 4:42 PM
jaded13640 - 2021-05-22 1:15 PM
I'll bet it's near impossible to find those air cleaners. I've heard of repops but not of this particular style. The ones I'm thinking of were for the long ram cars.
You just have to start looking...
And have chuck of change saved up. My air cleaner from the poly is still on the shelf, it's in really good shape too. I'd no likely sell it as I want to keep everything that made the car original. I converted it to alternator the week I bought it as the generator started squeeling. I wasn't impressed with it when it worked fine so I put gm one wire on it. I like to be able to drive them not have to choose lights or heat. LOL But I still have every single bracket bolt and part that I took off to convert it.
I'll bet those correct original side hung air cleaners for the dual 4 would be extremely spendy. But you never know right? Like you said, you gotta look for them. They're NOT going to show up at your door without starting to look for them.
Thanks for the links.
Wayne
PS, now that you made me look I'm pissed that they can get that much for a paper air filter! LOL THANKS!!!
Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-22 7:53 PM
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Location: So. Cal | They can't get that much for those filters. You can buy them new from Napa for about $11. Those old ones are nearly worthless, except for the box.
Those air cleaners are very expensive. A set of them will likely cost around $800-$1000. You can try to make them from side saddle air cleaners, but the transition piece would have to be hand fabricated, and isn't easy to do at all. These days, side saddle air cleaners themselves are very spendy as well. |
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| Yea, the round one for my poly, side saddle are like 10 bucks a piece. I've got three of em on a shelf. Same with the oil canister filter. I've got a tote full of them. I know a lot of people buy the stuff to convert it to a spin on but I've already got them. Matter of fact I think I got them, tote and all from a garage sale. Something like that.
Now with the Hemi, it's got a big round oil bath filter. I actually have no idea what it looks like inside, I just took it off and put on a shelf. |
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | jaded13640 - 2021-05-22 10:26 PM
Now with the Hemi, it's got a big round oil bath filter. I actually have no idea what it looks like inside, I just took it off and put on a shelf.
A 354 hemi (technically a "double rocker") engine came from a 1956 Chrysler that had gobs of room between the top of the Carter WCFB four barrel carb and the underside of the hood. With the redesign of the cars in 1957 and the lack of carb to hood room, an oil bath air cleaner won't work, hence the side-saddle air cleaners (with paper filters). Part of the problem is the skyscraper height of the Carter WCFB 4 bbl carbs. The later AFB and AVS aren't as tall and offer more potential air cleaner options.
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| Awesome! Another complication.... |
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| So it appears that I'm looking for a four barrel air cleaner and valve covers that don't say "Chrysler" on them. I guess the only option is to get dodge truck valve covers or marine because they're "blank".
So far I've heard there not really common. I don't know if the 392 valve covers are the same as 354 and I don't know for sure if the Dodges got the 392 right away. I believe they got them later but not right away.
The good news is that my oil pan came today. It's really nice! There's a couple of small dings in it but it's othewise perfect. I'll paint it tonight with some other stuff. I'm still cleaning the chassis of grime rust and dirt.
There are so many layers of oil, then dirt and then more oil and more dirt it's a huge pain to get it off. You can dig into it with a scraper but it doesn't just scrap off easily. It's been there for a very long time. The other issue is all the weld splatter all over everything. If I welded like that would get fired! That's how much splatter I've got to clean up. If you try to avoid removing the "dingle balls" you can't really clean that area. It's not like wiping grease off a part and your done.
Anyway, I'll take a pic of my new pan and post it later.
Thanks guys,
Wayne |
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Location: So. Cal | The marine covers aren't blank. Only the truck covers are blank. They never put a 392 into a truck, just the 331 and 354. The valve covers are interchangeable between the 331 to 392 so no problem there.
Keep an eye out on ebay as the plain truck covers do show up on there from time to time. Expect to pay around $300 for them. You should also be able to get a side saddle air cleaner from there as well for around $250. There is one on there now, but it is very chromed and very expensive.
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| Cool. Thanks a lot!
Like I said my new pan came. Of course it was a used one and it was in pretty fair shape. There were a few dings and such, it looked someone set the motor on the floor when the pan was in direct contact. The result was that the entire drain plug area, which is a bulge, was partially flattened but it really wasn't too severe. One of my roommates is a whiz metal work. I asked him if he'd look at the worst ding and that's all I was going to do with it, fix that and paint it, slap it on. He got that thing so strait that if it wasn't for the places that he worked the primer was chipped I wouldn't have believed it was the same pan! Every little ding, there was a slight crease on one side he fixed that, I mean this thing is now perfect other than prime and paint! I wish I had gotten a before and after picture...I just didn't think about it. I'm pretty lucky to have talented people around me and that included you guy on the forum.
I sure appreciate you all. I'm whooped, time for bed!
Thanks again,
Wayne
Edited by jaded13640 2021-05-27 3:34 AM
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Location: N.W. Fla. | Powerflite - 2021-05-21 7:50 PM
2. Plymouth had their own poly motors.
4. You could convert your original 325 poly motor into a 325 hemi motor by swapping the pistons, heads, rockers, valve covers, spark plug tubes, pushrods with 325 Dodge hemi parts.
2. Plym & DeSoto hemi based Polys were Dodge hemi based. The A Poly started with Plymouth & spread from there.
4. Add Ex. Mans to the list |
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Mopar1 - 2021-05-27 3:57 AM
2. Plym & DeSoto hemi based Polys were Dodge hemi based. The A Poly started with Plymouth & spread from there.
Not exactly sure what you are saying George, but I *think* that the following is true:
1. 1955 Plymouths used Dodge-based polys V8s (but as 241s and 259s) that were based on the Dodge 270 V8 block (which was used on both the 1955 Dodge polys and hemis) (with 4.1875" bore spacing and 9.29" deck height)
2. 1956 Plymouth V8s were polys but they were their own blocks with a 4.46" bore spacing and 9.6" deck height. 276 cu in in the US except for the 56 Furys - they used the Windsor Ontario-built 303 poly (same deck height and bore spacing). This 303 was also used in the 1956 Canadian-built Custom Royals.
3. Desoto Firesweeps were Dodges under the skin and used Dodge running gear and engines.
Edited by 56D500boy 2021-05-27 4:32 PM
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Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | I have some truck covers on my website 'inventory clearance' page.
How about a recap...
All DeSoto engines were Hemi except for the KDS which, has been noted, is a 325 Dodge engine.
All Dodges used Dodge engines except for the D501, which has been noted.
Plymouth used the 259 and 270 Poly engines, Dodge based engines, prior to the new 'A' series in 1956.
Very Little interchanges between the three engine series. |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | wayfarer - 2021-05-28 7:13 PM
Plymouth used the 259 and 270 Poly engines, Dodge based engines, prior to the new 'A' series in 1956.
. In '55, Plym used the 241 & 259 Poly, in '56 the 270 & 2 sizes of the "A" Poly. |
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Mopar1 - 2021-05-29 9:50 AM
In '55, Plym used the 241 & 259 Poly, in '56 the 270 & 2 sizes of the "A" Poly.
I agree with the Dodge-based 241 and 259 polys in 1955 Plymouths and 2 sizes of "A" ("277" (actually 276) and 303) in 1956 Plymouths but I am surprised that any 56 Plymouths got the 270 (Dodge) motor, given that they had their own "A" engine.
Any references for the 270 in 56 Plymouths? I am basing what I have typed on Willem Weertman's Chrysler Engines book.
Just curious. I know things in reality can be different than on paper.
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Location: So. Cal | The 277 wasn't ready for production at the start of the '56 model year, and when it did start, it started slowly. As a result, early cars purchased with V8's received the 270 Dodge motor with a red air cleaner instead. As production started to ramp up, the higher end model Belvedere received the 277 with a yellow air cleaner first, while the Savoy still received the 270 Dodge motor with a red air cleaner. At some point the 270 motor was phased out, and the 277 took over for all of them.
Edited by Powerflite 2021-05-29 2:02 PM
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Location: Alaska | I believe there were also some early 57 Plymouths that got the 277 but not sure it continued through the model year. |
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Location: Lower Mainland BC | Powerflite - 2021-05-29 11:00 AM
The 277 wasn't ready for production at the start of the '56 model year, and when it did start, it started slowly. As a result, early cars purchased with V8's received the 270 Dodge motor with a red air cleaner instead. As production started to ramp up, the higher end model Belvedere received the 277 with a yellow air cleaner first, while the Savoy still received the 270 Dodge motor with a red air cleaner. At some point the 270 motor was phased out, and the 277 took over for all of them.
I can see a yellow air cleaner and the straighter valve cover = 277 in this 56 Belvedere, so I've learned something new everyday. 
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| So....long story short...NOT a direct bolt in.
Anyway, I decided to drop the Poly back in for the summer so I might be able to get to drive it a little bit this year. The engine is quite a bit longer which puts the mounts much further forward. Even if you extensively modified the mounts or cobbled up some plates....it's just a puck! What has to happen to do it make it look like it's supposed to be that way is to take the mounting pads on the frame, cut them off close to the frame, swap them side for side and weld them back on as needed. ALSO, there isn't much underhood clearance so I may have to trim the mounting pads to lower the motor, there's even a possibility of needing to slightly modifying the front of the oil pan, especially if you're lowering the motor....OR bag the whole thing and try to find either a complete 325 Hemi or the parts to make mine a 325 Hemi as mentioned above. We'll see what happens. But now I'm trying to get everything back together and everything snowballed into a monster of a project so I'm pretty discouraged. |
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57 Suburban 325 Poly 354 Hemi direct bolt in?
