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Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...
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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-23 9:41 PM (#604840)
Subject: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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I'm rebuilding my Troqueflite out of my 57 Suburban. I started going through the valve bodies today. I got to the third one, the service manual page 413 says, in big bold letters, "do not disturb the throttle valve stop screw. This is a factory setting and cannot be reset with field equipment".

The problem is mine was loose. There was some odd shifting going on before I pulled the trans to rebuild that I just attributed to being worn out. It would allow kickdown at higher speed than previously, the throttle lever adjustment was almost out of it's range. Again, I just thought it was because the whole thing was worn out. I get it apart and the screw is loose.

I'm hoping someone else has run into this or can help me in some way because I don't have a clue what I can do about this issue.

I'll try to post a photo but I can't seem to get them small enough to load onto the site.

Thanks in advance,

Wayne



(IMG_20201023_211513.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2020-10-23 9:57 PM (#604843 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Wayne: I have a valve body out of my 57 Windsor air-cooled TF that I can measure for you, if you want. Tomorrow (Saturday). If you tell me what you need measuring.



REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=73637&...

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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-23 10:48 PM (#604845 - in reply to #604843)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Aw, Awesome!

Ok so just measure how much of the screw comes through the threaded hole in the casting. Measure that distance from the edge of the casting to the end of the screw. It's possible that your jam nut could be the side you're measuring. Don't worry about that, just go from the casting to the end of the bolt. Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about the side of the bolt with the hex, I'm talking about how much threaded part of the bolt sticks out of the casting.

Thank you so much!

Wayne
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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-24 3:32 PM (#604881 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Has anyone else ever run into this? It seems like it would have had to have happened before because it's an aluminum casting so they couldn't torque it too tight without risking damage and they've all been bouncing down the road for 60 years or so. At least SOME are going to loosen up. There has to be a way to set that other than going by the setting on another random valve body. It's pretty disheartening to read directly from the Dodge Service manual that it can't be done. There must be a way, it's a nut and a bolt for Christ sakes! LOL I refuse to believe it's simply impossible to reset. It would probably help a lot if I understood the entire mechanism a little better. I get that when throttle is applied it pushes on the kickdown arm which rotates that sleeve and presses on the throttle pressure valve. I don't quite understand why the stop screw setting is so important. Especially since the manual says it's not resetable. It's setting must be pretty darned important then right? LOL

Anyway, if anyone else knows anything about this, please reply.

Thanks,

Wayne
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-10-24 3:44 PM (#604882 - in reply to #604843)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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56D500boy - 2020-10-23 6:57 PM.
Wayne: I have a valve body out of my 57 Windsor air-cooled TF that I can measure for you, if you want. Tomorrow (Saturday). If you tell me what you need measuring.


This is my first attempt at getting the measurement you need. 2.295 or 2.300 by eye lining up the caliper "inside" tip with the end of the bolt. After I have my lunch I will try again with the "outside" jaws of the caliper and get a measurement via subtraction (I'll take photos).





(57WindsorTorquefliteValveBodyShifterStopMeasurement_1.jpg)



(57WindsorTorquefliteValveBodyShifterStopMeasurement_2.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2020-10-24 4:47 PM (#604887 - in reply to #604882)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Try No.2 - different technique. I get 0.7425-0.5090 = 0.2335 so maybe 0.003 or 0.004 different than my "eyeball" - not bad.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-10-24 4:49 PM




(57WindsorTorquefliteValveBodyShifterStopMeasurement_3.jpg)



(57WindsorTorquefliteValveBodyShifterStopMeasurement_4.jpg)



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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-25 3:42 AM (#604905 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Thanks a lot for that dimension. Boy, I got A LOT done today. I'll try to shrink some pics and post em.

Thanks,

Wayne

I'm still trying to figure out how to resize a photo LOL I'm getting a little better I think. The other day I couldn't even post one. Now I'm posting them so small you would need a magnifying glas

I'll tell you guys what, the guy that found the PDF files of all the service manuals and shared them with all of use deserves one hell of an atta boy!

With even just basic, low level mechanical ability and can read and follow instructions and has the service manual,and of course a crap load of tools, I think anyone could rebuild one of these trannies. The only difficulty is that they're different. None of it is particularly difficult so much as it, just different from what I'm familiar with. And that's cool!


Edited by jaded13640 2020-10-25 4:23 AM




(IMG_20201025_003048.jpg)



(IMG_20201025_025419.jpg)



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57chizler
Posted 2020-10-25 3:24 PM (#604915 - in reply to #604881)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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jaded13640 - 2020-10-24 12:32 PM

I don't quite understand why the stop screw setting is so important. Especially since the manual says it's not resetable. It's setting must be pretty darned important then right? LOL


From my experience with the 727/904, the factory specifies a special tool to set the throttle pressure adjustment but "misadjustment" simply results in a lower/higher upshift speed for a given throttle setting...kinda what you experienced. External linkage adjustment would always compensate.
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wizard
Posted 2020-10-25 4:46 PM (#604917 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Agree with John above, but if you want to do a measurement, it's on the valve side it must be done. Valve and valve body bores are precise, the stop screw, the nut, outside of the valve body and the arm might differ.



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56D500boy
Posted 2020-10-25 5:20 PM (#604919 - in reply to #604905)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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jaded13640 - 2020-10-25 12:42 AM
I'm still trying to figure out how to resize a photo LOL I'm getting a little better I think. The other day I couldn't even post one. Now I'm posting them so small you would need a magnifying glass


Wayne: Check your private mail for some hints for resizing photos. It's easy (with the right freeware).

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wizard
Posted 2020-10-26 4:19 AM (#604931 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Here's the measurement that I would do.....



(IMG_2244-rez.jpg)



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57chizler
Posted 2020-10-27 12:48 PM (#604966 - in reply to #604931)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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I agree, if you have an unmolested VB measure the air gap between the tip of the valve and the cam and set the unknown one accordingly.
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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-28 2:26 AM (#604980 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Thanks Wizard and 57chizler. That's a good idea. Maybe I can get 56d500boy to, at his convenience, take that measurement.

I ran into a big hick up today I'll tell you! I had already assembled the rear clutch, per the manual and I used the seal out of the package that was the best fit for the piston. Then I get to the front clutch piston and wow, That piston is even bigger than the rear's and the only seal left in the kit was SMALLER than the one I'd put in the rear clutch's piston. I had to disassemble the rear clutch and remove the seal off the piston to see that it was the only one I could use for the front piston. I don't like that there's not labeling in kits. I was just lucky I didn't damage either in the process and it all went back together nicely. I went by the newer 727 experience I had rebuilding them. When I selected the seal for the rear piston from the package I was absolutely certain it HAD to be the one that went there. The manual can go into VERY detailed instruction on things but no heads up that the smaller of the two seals in the kit goes on the rear piston? Actually it approaches this as if you're just going to be checking the condition of the seals and replacing them ONLY if needed. And of course the writers wouldn't have known what seals would be in the kit...although...They knew there were only two clutch pistons and that one was larger than the other, that's for sure and could have mention that. I just want to let everyone know to watch for that if they're rebuilding one of these.

Well, the final unit of the drivetrain is nearly back together. Then it's all gotta go back into that case. Boy, it sure can take forever when you're working on a trans you've never seen before, especially one this old where most of the special tools aren't available or at the very least scarce. If it wasn't for this forum I could have been in over my head really easy on this one. This one has been a challenge. It's a good thing I like a challenge huh? LOL

Thanks again guys,

Wayne
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wizard
Posted 2020-10-28 4:54 AM (#604981 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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I think that most that has worked with the cast iron hogs made the mistake with the clutch seals

Good luck with the renovation!
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-10-28 10:01 AM (#604983 - in reply to #604980)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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jaded13640 - 2020-10-27 11:26 PM
Thanks Wizard and 57chizler. That's a good idea. Maybe I can get 56d500boy to, at his convenience, take that measurement.


LOL. I was waiting for that request. I assume that I will need a feeler gauge. (I have two but where they are might take an hour or two to find out).



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-10-28 2:15 PM
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57chizler
Posted 2020-10-28 1:42 PM (#604991 - in reply to #604983)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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For larger gaps, a drill bit makes a good feeler gauge.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-10-28 3:29 PM (#604993 - in reply to #604991)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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57chizler - 2020-10-28 10:42 AM
For larger gaps, a drill bit makes a good feeler gauge.


Thanks that was a great idea.

3/16 = 6/32 = 12/64 was too loose

7/32 (shown in the photo) = 14/32 was just a tad tight (it put a slight pressure on and moved that throttle pressure piston a wee bit)

So on that basis, I would say 13/32 would be about right. I don't have 13/32 drill bit to test that theory.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-10-28 3:32 PM




(MeasurementBetweenTheSwingArmAndThrottlePressurePiston7_32ABitTight.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2020-10-28 5:32 PM (#604997 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Thanks' Dave! My spare transmission is renovated and all mounted so I couldn't take that measurement.
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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-28 6:04 PM (#604999 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Thanks a ton you guys. I've needed your help quite a few times on this project and you've gone above and beyond, that's for sure.

I've got a new thread going. The wording of the service manual instruction regarding how to set up the clearance in the front clutch pack is missing something. The way it instructs you to do it the pressure plate would be against the top disk. There would be no clearance.

Maybe someone could take a look at page 400, 401 in digital form?

Thanks,

Wayne

Edited by jaded13640 2020-10-28 8:06 PM
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wizard
Posted 2020-10-28 6:19 PM (#605000 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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I need the number, type 74, 1, 2,3 etc.
My digital versions do not have a page 400.
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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-28 10:50 PM (#605010 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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I'm not sure what you're asking for wizard. But here's a copy and paste of page 400. Scroll down to instruction 9. I've double spaced it above and below.

Thanks,

Wayne

400 DODGE SERVICE MANUAL
FRONT CLUTCH PISTON
FRONT CLUTCH PISTON SEAL RING
FRONT CLUTCH PISTON
RETAINER ASSEMBLY
BALL CHECK
53x54A
Fig. 95—Removal and Installation of Front Clutch
Piston Assembly
marks. If light remove with crocus cloth, if heavy replace
the piston (M).
(5) Inspect lever retainer (K), return spring (J)f
spring
retainer (I), and snap ring (H) for distortion.
Front Clutch Retainer—Inspection
(1) Note ball check in clutch retainer. The purpose of
ball check is to relieve centrifugal oil pressure when
clutch is in released position (neutral and reverse) and
engine speeds are increased; otherwise, clutch may engage. Make sure ball operates freely.
(2) Inspect seal ring surface in hub; if intermediate
shaft seal rings have excessively worn or grooved this
surface, replace the clutch piston retainer (N) assembly.
(3) Remove any metal pickup on hub of retainer, and
inspect seal ring groove for nicks or burrs.
(4) Inspect steel clutch plate contacting surfaces for
scores or brinelling. Make sure clutch driving lugs on
steel plates travel free in retainer.
(5) Inspect splines on rear of retainer for nicks, burrs,
or brinelling.
¢6) Inspect thrust surface on rear of retainer for
scratches or scoring. Make sure all clutch feed and lubricating passages are free from foreign matter.
Unit No. 3-Assembly
(1) Lubricate and install inner (neoprene) seal ring
(Q) on hub of clutch retainer. Make definitely sure
that lip of seal is facing down and seal is properly seated in groove.
(2) Lubricate and install outer seal ring ¢R) on clutch
piston with lip of seal facing away from flange.
(3) Place piston assembly (M) in clutch retainer and
with a twisting motion, seat piston in bottom of retainer,
as shown in Figure 95.
(4) Place lever retainer (K) in piston and install the
four levers (L). Make sure levers are free and
properly seated in piston slots.
(5) Install clutch return spring (J) over hub of clutch
retainer (N), and position spring retainer (I) and snap
ring (H) on spring.
(6) Using compressor, Tool C-3575, compress the
clutch return spring sufficiently to seat snap ring with
pliers, Tool C-3301. Spring retainer may require
guiding past the piston retainer hub. Make
sure snap ring is properly seated.
(7) Remove spring compressing portion of Tool
C-3575.
(8) Install pressure plate (F) (smooth side up) in retainer. Install discs and plates by placing one of the
driving discs (D) in the clutch retainer followed by a
steel plate (E). Repeat this procedure until all driving
discs and steel plates have been installed.
Checking for Proper Travel of
Clutch Pressure Plate
It is very important that the front clutch pressure plate
has the proper amount of travel where levers are used
for applying additional pressure to clutch plates. Insufficient travel may cause the clutch plates to drag. Excessive travel may allow slippage of the clutch. To check
for proper travel of the clutch pressure plate, proceed
as follows:


(9) Install the rear clutch pressure plate (which was
withheld during the assembly of unit No. 2) on top of
the front clutch pack. Holding this plate firmly in position, insert a feeler gauge between the plate and top
disc in the assembly. The total clearance should be from
.020 to .040 inches. If the measured clearance is not
within these limits, the clutch discs should be replaced
with any combination of new discs, (part numbers
1636260, 1363372 or 1636373) to provide for proper
clearance.


(10) Remove the rear clutch pressure plate and install in its proper location in the rear clutch assembly.
Install rear clutch snap ring.
(11) Install the front clutch hub, cushion spring retaining plate (T) (Figure 96), and cushion spring (S)
(concave side, as shown in Figure 97, toward retaining
plate).
(12) The front clutch cushion spring (S) must be preloaded to 500 pounds for assembly. Place front clutch
and the input shaft assembly in an arbor press with the
rear of the piston retainer resting on a suitable support.
Press the input shaft into the clutch retainer until snap
ring (B) can be installed. If arbor press is not available use two "C" clamps placed 180° apart
as described previously.
(13) Remove the input shaft and front clutch assemblies from the arbor press (or remove "C" clamps) and
install the input shaft thrust washer.
MyMopar.com
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wizard
Posted 2020-10-29 7:58 AM (#605020 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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Reply in the other thread...
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57chizler
Posted 2020-10-29 2:28 PM (#605028 - in reply to #604993)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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56D500boy - 2020-10-28 12:29 PM

57chizler - 2020-10-28 10:42 AM
For larger gaps, a drill bit makes a good feeler gauge.


Thanks that was a great idea.

3/16 = 6/32 = 12/64 was too loose

7/32 (shown in the photo) = 14/32 was just a tad tight (it put a slight pressure on and moved that throttle pressure piston a wee bit)

So on that basis, I would say 13/32 would be about right. I don't have 13/32 drill bit to test that theory.

:)


I'm sure you meant 13/64" which is close to .200". Most unmolested 727's I've measured were close to .200" so it seems they followed a trend.

On the 727, the adjustment is made by installing a tool that is 5/8" between the valve tip and the cam and then bottoming out the throttle valve...this results in an air gap of .200" give or take a few thou; the adjustment isn't that critical.
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56D500boy
Posted 2020-10-29 3:32 PM (#605029 - in reply to #605028)
Subject: RE: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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57chizler - 2020-10-29 11:28 AM
56D500boy - 2020-10-28 12:29 PM
57chizler - 2020-10-28 10:42 AM For larger gaps, a drill bit makes a good feeler gauge.

Thanks that was a great idea.
3/16 = 6/32 = 12/64 was too loose
7/32 (shown in the photo) = 14/32 was just a tad tight (it put a slight pressure on and moved that throttle pressure piston a wee bit)
So on that basis, I would say 13/32 would be about right. I don't have 13/32 drill bit to test that theory.
:)


I'm sure you meant 13/64" which is close to .200". Most unmolested 727's I've measured were close to .200" so it seems they followed a trend.


Yup. My bad. 7/32=14/64 (Don't why I messed that up above (??).

So if 3/16=12/64 was too loose and 14/64=too tight, then yes, 13/64 = 0.203125 should be better. If the 727 spec was 0.200 then we have winner.



Edited by 56D500boy 2020-10-29 3:33 PM
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jaded13640
Posted 2020-10-29 4:35 PM (#605035 - in reply to #604840)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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LOL

It would have been nice if the manual would have just said, "should be roughly .200".

Thanks,

Wayne
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57chizler
Posted 2020-10-30 12:48 PM (#605063 - in reply to #605035)
Subject: Re: Cast iron torqueflite thottle valve stop screw was loose...



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As I stated, there was no specified "air gap", the factory adjustment procedure would produce an air gap but it would probably vary. Again, the adjustment isn't as critical as the book leads you to believe.
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