The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Drive in N !
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Transmission and Rear AxleMessage format
 
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-29 4:39 PM (#601473)
Subject: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
Hi all,
As you know i've overhauled a lot of TQF "'iron" and today i've a problem with one, one of the last model, installed in a '61 Polara 2 dr H/T, rare car...
The transmission, overhauled (not by me) 4 years ago had lost the R and drives (lightly) in N. The problem of reverse is solved (wrong adjustement of rear band) but the transmision (1835090, curious original number for a '61 *) engaged in N. Only light engagement, need to accelerate a little, and can't drive the car as in D, but itsn't secure ...
The cable has a perfect adjustement, done with oil pan removed and manual ball lever perfectly seat in sectors (and neutral extension lever on the middle of electrical switch when N, i don't trust the explanations of the adjustement wheel, i always set the cable with oil pan off) so itsn't a cable problem. The transmission works OK in 1 / 2/ D and R.
I suspect the valve body, seems the valve body plate has some wear where the balls (6) seat so the balls will not fit perfectly their seat.
If someone has a '60-61 valve body, let me know. 56-59 will not fit, i've a bunc of them and they can't be mounted on the transmission.

* Edit: wrong reading, the correct number is (W) 2204753 (25), which is ok)

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-29 4:44 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2020-07-29 5:02 PM (#601476 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: RE: Drive in N !



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
Phil_the_frenchie - 2020-07-29 1:39 PM As you know i've overhauled a lot of TQF "'iron" and today i've a problem with one, one of the last model, installed in a '61 Polara 2 dr H/T, rare car...
The transmission, overhauled (not by me) 4 years ago had lost the R and drives (lightly) in N. The problem of reverse is solved (wrong adjustment of rear band) but the transmission (1835090, curious original number for a '61 *)


You sure about that number? I thought 18nnnnn = 1958. And 1958 TF transmissions had numbers like 1824 561, 1854 159, 1854 165 and 1853 917.

I checked 1835090 in the 50-65 Mopar Parts interchange and nothing shows up either.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2020-07-30 1:30 AM (#601480 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Phil, seems like theres no free play in the front clutch. Too thick clutch disks or no full return of the piston.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-30 3:33 AM (#601483 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
Yes, it's a possibility. The front clutch piston is a eight levers. The clearance is i think the same as on 4 levers system (.020 to .040). I've always difficulties to understand the free play method with 1824319 plate, i suppose that this plate doesn't fall on the clutch pack but stays on the shoulders of the housing.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-30 3:58 AM (#601484 - in reply to #601483)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France

Another question, i can't find hydraulic schematics on '59, '60, '61 shop manuals so i think it's the same as on the '58.
Do you think that the ball check valves (5 in '58 + 1 bleed valve , 6 in 59 and later) are the A, B, C etc.. on the drawing ? I've circled the ball check valves
What are the purpose of theses valves and how the works ?



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-30 5:03 AM




(57TQFballcheckvalves [1280x768].jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 57TQFballcheckvalves [1280x768].jpg (199KB - 352 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-07-30 5:11 AM (#601485 - in reply to #601484)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
I reply to my own question !!!!!
As i don't see any ball check valves in the forward clutch hydraulic i think that the problem came from another. But i haven't the '60/61 hydraulic schematics (ther's 6 ball valves in the valve body, not 5)

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-07-30 5:15 AM




(checkvalve [1280x768].jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments checkvalve [1280x768].jpg (151KB - 362 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2020-08-03 3:13 AM (#601631 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Sorry for late reply Phil, been very busy lately. Actually, I have not found the purpose of the sixth check valve ball for the 60 TF, but at least I found a decent photo of the locations of the balls.

Hope this will help you slightly




(TF 60 Valve body check valves.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments TF 60 Valve body check valves.jpg (171KB - 362 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-14 4:25 PM (#604450 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: RE: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France

Hi all,

Since some months i've the '61 Polara in my garage, it can't go from it, the car stalls very fast after 1 or 2 meters. I suspect the carb and fuel pump. But ...

So we found a trailer to go the a more suitable garage ! Note that the car could do some meters ahead or reverse, but if i put a little gas the car stalls ! As the car always drives in N we decides to remove another time the transmission. But the complete transmisson and not the units as we did in july.

Surptise, surpise .... The converter reaction shaft is broken !!! What could produce this breakage ? The car could drive with this breakage ?





(IMG_20201014_172324 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_172333 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_170454 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_170447 1600fili-moi.jpg)



(IMG_20201014_170343 1600fili-moi.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_20201014_172324 1600fili-moi.jpg (239KB - 289 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_172333 1600fili-moi.jpg (134KB - 290 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_170454 1600fili-moi.jpg (127KB - 296 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_170447 1600fili-moi.jpg (183KB - 288 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20201014_170343 1600fili-moi.jpg (248KB - 302 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Shep
Posted 2020-10-14 4:31 PM (#604451 - in reply to #604450)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Expert

Posts: 3393
20001000100100100252525
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)
Phil, I think something in the convertor seized and and caused the reaction support to break, remember that is a fixed component.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2020-10-14 4:37 PM (#604452 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Yes, the converter seized. Never saw so grave damage before.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-14 4:55 PM (#604453 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
But we can rotate the converter from its teeth of the reaction shaft , it turns !
And if the converter seized the car could go ahead or reverse ?

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-10-14 4:57 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-14 5:08 PM (#604454 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
It's very strange because in july we tried to repair the problem of the Tqf (no R and drive in N). After a day we have the R (bad adjustment of band) and it seems that the car didn't drive in N. We made a lot of tests with a lot of kickdown to verify if the throtthe lever was well adjusted. All was fine. After that the owner filled the gas tank and parked the car at my home. When i tried some days after to drive the car there was problem with the carb or fuel pump so i let the car sitting at home. In september i re-tried to start the car, need some ga sin the carb to start but stalled after i made 2 meters in R. I restarted the car, go in D 2 meters, ok, 2 meters in R, ok or stalls after another test. Look like the car was "locked", can't push it .... But after a re-start the car goes ahead again (2 meters).
Last week i decide to drive the car to another garage, with more place than at my home. I start the car (always with some gas poured in the carb), i drove it 10 meters in R then 50 meter in D but at a light pressure on gas it stalls again ! So we put it on a trailer. At its new garage i could again drive the car in R on 5 meters.
And today we open the transmission.
My friend (mecanic) told me that the problem is not a today problem. But i can't explain how the car could drive, even 1 or 2 meters, with a converter shaft broken !!!!!

It's also vey curiois that the shaft broke in several area and not at one !

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-10-14 5:11 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Shep
Posted 2020-10-14 7:13 PM (#604455 - in reply to #604454)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Expert

Posts: 3393
20001000100100100252525
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)
Phil it shattered from. excess torque being applied. Better go thru the trans for debris, this could also cause the engine to stall at idle or low speeds.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2020-10-15 3:31 AM (#604470 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
THanks to all for replies.
We've completly disassembled the trans, the clutches are also bad. And the two valves (converter and regulator valves in the regulator valve body) were locked/seized.
Do you think thay the converter needs to be replaced ?
I've found some converter reaction shaft but they are in aluminium ! I've an aluminium shaft in my spare parts (from an earty 57 transmission), these shafts were replaced during 1957 year by the iron one. Too weak ?

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2020-10-15 4:30 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2020-10-15 3:58 AM (#604472 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
With such damage and small debrise I wouldn't use the converter. If some vanes fell off and blocked the movement, the converter might be full of Metal parts. The alu reaktion shafts was upgraded to iron, should be identical but stronger.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Shep
Posted 2020-10-15 1:43 PM (#604488 - in reply to #604472)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Expert

Posts: 3393
20001000100100100252525
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)
wizard - 2020-10-15 3:58 AM

With such damage and small debrise I wouldn't use the converter. If some vanes fell off and blocked the movement, the converter might be full of Metal parts. The alu reaktion shafts was upgraded to iron, should be identical but stronger.
Agreed, do not reuse the convertor.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2021-05-05 4:32 PM (#611743 - in reply to #604488)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
Hi all,
I 've some news since last year ... The car no longer moves in neutral !
But... but ...

We've burnt again all the Forward clutches after 5 miles test. Not in one time but test after test the transmission began to slip and the the engine races every times we need acceleration.
I try to be accurate:
- When we overhauled the trans in august 2020 the fwd clutches were shot and we found that the converter shaft was broken in 3 parts, see above ...
- the converter was sent to a professional warehouse in Holland which overhauled (after some months delay..) the converter.
- We put a new (NOS) valve body because it seems that some areas of the check balls were used
- we 've some problem to build the fwd clutches pack, needs to use the most thinner friction discs to get the proper free play (0.020 to 0.040). We succeed , in fact i think we succeed... Please note that i'm not a newbie in cast iron Tqf rebuild, it's maybe the 20th or 30 th trans we did. But it was the first time we encountered problems in the front clutches pack free play.

So we were confident in our work and tried to put the Polara on the road again. Some problems with engine, carb, ignition as usual after 8 months outside. Now the 361 runs perfect. The car didn't "drrive in N" (except maybe the first time, not sure but i's important) , woah ... The car drives in D and reverse in R so all is fine.

I drove the car on the road, only some small disatnce (around 2 km each time), i noticed an unusual sound like a slipping belt when the car upshift from 1 to 2. And maybe engine races at the same time. I did a throttle linkage adjsutment, not very useful, so return to previous adjustment. But the car responds not very well, much slipping and engine racing at acceleration. After 3 or 4 tests, there were a lot of slippage. The AFT looks very clear ....
We put the car on the lift and removed the oil pan.

Ther's a problem .....



Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2021-05-05 4:37 PM




(IMG_20210503_175154 [1600x1200].jpg)



(IMG_20210504_152159 [1280x768].jpg)



(IMG_20210504_153755 [1280x768].jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_20210503_175154 [1600x1200].jpg (136KB - 185 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20210504_152159 [1280x768].jpg (230KB - 180 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20210504_153755 [1280x768].jpg (155KB - 179 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Shep
Posted 2021-05-06 5:24 PM (#611794 - in reply to #611743)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Expert

Posts: 3393
20001000100100100252525
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George)
Assuming 2 units are not applied at the same time, the forward clutch pack has too much pack clearance or you have low pump pressure in drive, apart now, no way to check drive line pressure. Clutch condition definitely shows extreme slippage.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2021-05-07 1:36 AM (#611800 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Back in the seventies, before the internet and the possibilities to find parts, I had very simular problems with the transmission on my '59 New Yorker.
The problems I had was the reaction shaft bore being worn out by the steel seal rings. Sometimes I was able to find a better reaction shaft, but they were all worn. That means that the steel seal rings cannot seal properly, or even cracks when installing the front pump.

So, check for internal leakage, it's a disaster for the front clutch.

I installed a temporary pressure manometer for the line pressure, so I could see if the pressure was decreasing. Cold starts of the engine normally showed none to low line pressure with this problem. When the front pump eventually overcame the internal leakage, the line pressure increased and it was possible to drive the car.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2021-05-07 3:35 AM (#611804 - in reply to #611794)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
Shep - 2021-05-06 11:24 PM

Assuming 2 units are not applied at the same time, the forward clutch pack has too much pack clearance or you have low pump pressure in drive, apart now, no way to check drive line pressure. Clutch condition definitely shows extreme slippage.


Too much clearance ? Or too low clearance ? If clearance is too low the car could drive in N and/or the discs could burn when the car was in N ?

I can't build the front pack, even with the thinnest friction discs. With four 0.060 discs i achieve a 0.0080 free play... The correct clearance is 0.020 to 0.040. I measure the play with a front clutch 1736393 which rests on shoulders of the piston retainer. Then i measure the play between this plate and the upper disc. See pics where you see the special plate (used in four levers model) and this plate installed (w/o clutch pack) to show how it stands on the shoulders of the retainer, as do the input shaft when installed.
The only way to have the correct play (between 0.020 and 0.040) is to replace the clutch pressure plate (4.35 mm thick), the one who rests on the 8 levers, with two steel clutch plates (1.80 mm x 2 = 3.6 mm) but i'm not sure it's a good idea. I've other pressure plates so i'll machine one at 3.6 mm thickness.



(IMG_20210504_152647 [1280x768].jpg)



(IMG_20210504_152657 [1280x768].jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments IMG_20210504_152647 [1280x768].jpg (180KB - 184 downloads)
Attachments IMG_20210504_152657 [1280x768].jpg (206KB - 179 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2021-05-07 6:14 AM (#611806 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Phil, I've done this modification a couple of times, without any problems. I use my lathe. For the 727 there's also different thickness in the steelplates awailable. Had to buy some when I renovated a 727. For the fast iron hogs, to my knowledge there's only the standard steel plate thickness.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2021-05-07 11:45 AM (#611814 - in reply to #611806)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
wizard - 2021-05-07 3:14 AM
Phil, I've done this modification a couple of times, without any problems. I use my lathe. For the 727 there's also different thickness in the steelplates awailable. Had to buy some when I renovated a 727. For the fast iron hogs, to my knowledge there's only the standard steel plate thickness.


Hate to contradict you Sven but I just found different thicknesses of front clutch plates as far back as 1957 and as late as 1961. Maybe I got it wrong but...



(1957TorqueFliteFrontClutchDiscSizesAndPNs.jpg)



(1961TorqueFliteFrontClutchDiscSizesAndPNs.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 1957TorqueFliteFrontClutchDiscSizesAndPNs.jpg (186KB - 179 downloads)
Attachments 1961TorqueFliteFrontClutchDiscSizesAndPNs.jpg (204KB - 186 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2021-05-07 1:14 PM (#611816 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Yes Dave, but thats the fibre discs, not the steel discs.
Different thickness in steel plates for the early transmissions does not exist, least not to my knowledge.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2021-05-07 1:31 PM (#611817 - in reply to #611816)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Expert 5K+

Posts: 9855
5000200020005001001001002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
wizard - 2021-05-07 10:14 AM
Yes Dave, but thats the fibre discs, not the steel discs.
Different thickness in steel plates for the early transmissions does not exist, least not to my knowledge.


I see my error now. Thanks Sven. The friction material discs are "Discs" and the non-friction discs are "Plates".

You can see in both the 57-58 and 61 listings that the Front Clutch plates listed in section 21-133-38 were PN 1636 262 over the entire time period.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2021-05-07 2:29 PM (#611818 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Thought so, thanks' Dave. With an industrial grinder with a magnetic table it would be simple to adjust the plates.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Phil_the_frenchie
Posted 2021-06-04 10:30 AM (#612455 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Elite Veteran

Posts: 915
500100100100100
Location: Pau, S-W France
I've overhauled the transmission with a thinner pressure plate (3.6 mm vs 4.35 mm), polished perfectly the regulator and converter valves, which could be a problem as they slided not perfectly in the valve body. The car drives now perfect ! But i was very anxious when i start the car. And after 1 km the car didn't move ... Not enough fluid !!!

Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2021-06-04 10:32 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
wizard
Posted 2021-06-04 11:24 AM (#612458 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !



Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+

Posts: 13042
500050002000100025
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
Great Phil, I know that feeling
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Stroller
Posted 2021-07-29 11:41 AM (#613881 - in reply to #601473)
Subject: Re: Drive in N !


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 371
1001001002525
The forward clutch pack has a clearance range. The fsm says if too wide, use a thicker snap ring. What I found is 1 clutch disk and the steel ring make the clearance right in specs. No idea where to get a thicker snap ring. I bet the front clutch locked up.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

* * * This site contains affiliate links for which we may be compensated * * *


(Delete all cookies set by this site)